Catapults Are Great

from Elemental Forums

Thought I'd open the discussion on Catapults a bit. There were quite buggy for a long time so I generally stayed away from them. I've recently been playing with them and finding that 3-5 of them with some support melee, I can win almost any battle with the AI.

 

Enemy ranged units tend to target my weakly armored archers, but I've found them incapable of really hurting the Catapult, the Catapult's fire power isn't diminished by injuries, so I don't bother with Archers, the Catapults tank the damage of enemy archers, and I just obliterate enemy infantry approaching.

Enemy cavalry could prove problematic, but I very rarely see the AI whip out cavalry.

 

My thinking is that we need to up the AI's understanding of enemy catapults and purposely spread their troops out more. Might want to consider adjusting the starting location logic a bit to ensure they are not in perfectly clumped ranks.

 

Thoughts?

16,483 views 19 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

You know, I have yet to really use catapults, I should give them a try.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

they work great as city defense, militia = fodder "But sir, won't we hit our own troops as well?  Why yes we will, but WE have reinforcements"

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top


yeah, they're great AoE.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

hmm, how do I get them?

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

This does highlight one problem with FE: by the time the high level techs like catapults become available, the game is usually over. All those fancy end of line techs usually appear too late to make much of a difference.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting athelasloraiel, reply 5
hmm, how do I get them?
End of athelasloraiel's quote

They're unlocked as part of the siege weapons tech in the warfare tree.  Once you've researched them, you just "train" them like normal troops.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Catas from a strike garrison... devastating. Of course by the time you get to catas, chances are, the game will already be determined.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Umm, I haven't built one, so let's start with that. I have fought no less than 5 of the enemies though and I dodge every single attack they ever did, against my homemade archers. Granted, I build my archers with dodge, but there were probably 12-15 attacks in all and they didn't hit once.

Are you sure they are better than an arcane archer built with the best longbow, with ice and fire necklaces, a ice ring, and built in a fully enchanted heart of fire fortress? I think not. 

Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Viperswhip, reply 9

Are you sure they are better than an arcane archer built with the best longbow, with ice and fire necklaces, a ice ring, and built in a fully enchanted heart of fire fortress?  
End of Viperswhip's quote

 

 

Considering that they're a heck of a lot less expensive, can hit several more targets per turn, and still have better defense... yes? 

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting rvgr, reply 6
This does highlight one problem with FE: by the time the high level techs like catapults become available, the game is usually over. All those fancy end of line techs usually appear too late to make much of a difference.
End of rvgr's quote

Sounds like you should do what I did and start playing all games with "fast" setting for pacing. It's part of the game setup, and I have found it largely fixes this problem. I was even interested in selecting a "fastest" setting, but unfortunately it doesn't exist. 

Are you sure they are better than an arcane archer built with the best longbow, with ice and fire necklaces, a ice ring, and built in a fully enchanted heart of fire fortress? I think not. 

The other problem with that is it costs a lot of crystal to make those arcane archers. Catapults cost zero crystal IIRC, and crystal is valuable late game if you want to make super units like a doom hammer wielding brigade of knights in champion armor with all the bells and whistles.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Viperswhip, reply 9
Are you sure they are better than an arcane archer built with the best longbow, with ice and fire necklaces, a ice ring, and built in a fully enchanted heart of fire fortress? I think not. 
End of Viperswhip's quote

They serve a different purpose, and take different resources to built.  So instead of either/or, just field both.  Not that the AI is likely to field anything worth this kind of firepower.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting rvgr, reply 6
This does highlight one problem with FE: by the time the high level techs like catapults become available, the game is usually over. All those fancy end of line techs usually appear too late to make much of a difference.
End of rvgr's quote

 

This is what I've noticed, and I think the bigger mod projects out this all recognize and work to fix as well. We have a very linear timeline/tech tree right now. For giggles I raced straight to catapults and now I'm destroying most of the world with wood-thrown rocks.

 OH and personally I don't think 'Fast' settings fix it.

Maybe we could get a Ballista Unit as a crappy version of siege warfare and then late game lead into the catapult.

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

I wish the catapult sieging ability was modable. I could do an entire siege metagame there. Without that I plan to move on to mixing magic with catapults. Fire attacks, ice attacks, poison gas bombs, flash bombs, etc... Pretty much anything my Thief can do I want to add to catapults.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

Could you do catapults that move strategically but can't move tactically? Might be a small thing to use in building a siege meta. Perhaps make their default damage be fire or some such so we can meta around a resistance?

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

It should be easy to do a spell that auto reduce cata moves to 0 at the start of battle.

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Gauntlet03, reply 13

Maybe we could get a Ballista Unit as a crappy version of siege warfare and then late game lead into the catapult.
End of Gauntlet03's quote

 

I could even think of a three tier upgrade path for siege weapons:

Ballistae

Catapults

Trebuchets

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Grizzyloins, reply 2
they work great as city defense, militia = fodder "But sir, won't we hit our own troops as well?  Why yes we will, but WE have reinforcements"
End of Grizzyloins's quote

I believe the quote goes "But sir, won't we hit our own troops as well?" "Why yes, but we'll hit their's as well". If we are thinking about the same movie that is =)

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

catapults don't really fit. they're too lategame, and by the time they exist they don't really have much of a niche. Earlier catapults are needed

 

On a related note, the strike garrison is stupid and needs to be removed from the game. i'd rather not consider any ranged unit's merits based on using that or not.

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting rvgr, reply 6
This does highlight one problem with FE: by the time the high level techs like catapults become available, the game is usually over. All those fancy end of line techs usually appear too late to make much of a difference.
End of rvgr's quote

Nah, usually you're used to having your army move at 4 moves/turn. Stay home Catapults, gotta go fast. I've always wanted to make a walking army of knights backed by catapults... but once you go cavalry... It's so hard to stop... Gilden maybe?

They poop on massed up light armoured units though. 2 catapults on defense can instantly turn the battle in your favor, you don't even need tactics.