Economic Balance and scaling costs in MP vs SP

*WARNING LONG POST!*   

There is a slight problem in the game at the moment for catering to the SP and the MP audience.

The main issue is that games last too long for MP, with slow starts and costly upgrades/ships.

I think for most players the SP is ok, I am quite happy to play the game at that pace in SP, because I can save at any point.

However, in MP, most players would like to see a 90min game for 1v1 and 2v2.

Some suggestions have been to create options to speed up resource rates. However, I feel that these are artificial aids that merely patch up intrinsic flaws in the games current economy modelling. I don't feel that although I will persevere in a SP game with longer resource gathering times, it doesn't mean they are correct. A SP player skirmish should play as fast as the MP, without simple measures such as doubling resources.

I believe that economic model at the moment needs to be completely reworked. This game works on a fairly flat economic growth, even after 90mins of playing on a tiny map, you will likely have only doubled your credit economy. This just doesn't fit with what you would expect from an expansionist strategy game. Capturing planets from an economic standpoint is not that beneficial (there are other benefits such as fleet cap, and increased research, however these only serve to further the length of the game as you don't have the economy to utilise it).

To illustrate the point, I will use the capital planet infrastructure upgrade. If you look at the population increase you gain, that translates to roughly 1/sec credit increase in income on base credit generation. It takes roughly 4 population increase to generate .1/sec credit increase. The upgrade costs 750 credits, meaning that it will take at least 15 minutes for you to recoup your investment.

The figures are even bleaker for Trade outposts, given that you have to pay for the civic research stations and then 1000 credits for each outpost and will likely only receive ~400 credits every run, which could take up to 5 mins, meaning that it will take you around ~30mins to recoup on the investment.

The economic model in this game needs to address how credits are generated, metal and crystal do not suffer the same issues, as asteroids are only moderately affected by allegiance and always have the same transfer rates. This would create the biggest imbalance in simply introducing a double resource option. Metal and Crystal mining would be the primary source of income and doubling their rates would mean that there would no longer be any real strategy to credit income gathering. Balance would be thrown out of the window for research trees and fleet building. The main skill would come down to who could sell on the black market quickest.

Basic balance suggestions I would like to see considered are:-

Slightly increasing base planetary credit income for non-capital planets. The main reason for colonisation should be credit income generation. Asteroids should remain at 0.

Increasing population credit income generation so 4 population is now .3 credits/sec. To encourage investment in economic growth.

Reducing trade setup costs and making them available early, so they are an option.

Advanced suggestions

Make ship wreckage salvagable so that can be a source of income for aggressive players and nice early bonus for killing those native ships.

Allow taxation rates to be manipulated, maybe at expense of planet growth/allegiance.

Later techs could have costs increased so that the game still can maintain length in SP and certain MP games.



Essentially the major hinderance to growth is that economic credit growth is fairly stagnant, whereas the cost of everything is exponential. Credit income has to be balanced and short term patches like double resources will not solve the original problem but likely cause others.
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Reply #1 Top
Essentially the major hinderance to growth is that economic credit growth is fairly stagnant, whereas the cost of everything is exponential. Credit income has to be balanced and short term patches like double resources will not solve the original problem but likely cause others.


Actually it's even worse than you think. Because of the alliance penalty you get, the further your planets are away from your capital, the ROI is even lower.

This is also the reason, why even on large maps your capital will usually make half of the credits income of your whole empire, since it probably will be the only planet with 100% effectiveness.

Reply #2 Top

This is also the reason, why even on large maps your capital will usually make half of the credits income of your whole empire, since it probably will be the only planet with 100% effectiveness.


I'm sorry, but no. Since planets are "capped" at 25% minimum (15% base + 10% culture) your capitol planet (and ones close to it) will be powerful, but on larger maps it will hardly be the half of you income you claim.


The main issue is that games last too long for MP, with slow starts and costly upgrades/ships.


And, as some people are pointing out, there is some kind of odd lag that slows down multiplayer games -- credits, antimatter, and the like have been timed, and gain far slower than in singleplayer.

Once that is fixed, then we won't have much of a problem anymore.

Oh, and btw, something you're overlooking is that mining asteroids are effected by allegiance penalties (or, at they very least, are supposed to be so...), and a "double resource patch" would double credits just as much as mining....
Reply #3 Top
Once that is fixed, then we won't have much of a problem anymore.


I find SP quite slow though, even playing on Tiny maps it takes around 60-90mins to complete a skirmish.

Oh, and btw, something you're overlooking is that mining asteroids are effected by allegiance penalties (or, at they very least, are supposed to be so...), and a "double resource patch" would double credits just as much as mining....


No I accounted for both of those. The allegiance penalty is minimal on asteroid mining as compared to credit income (as the capitol has a huge base income boost for credits).

The whole point is that credit gain, will be a low gain, the real gain will be asteroid mining. You double the income rate, you will have a flood of asteroid resources, that will likely spin the game out of balance.

The real issue in the gameplay is that credit flow does not scale up with costs. Most games revolve around selling crystal and metal on the black market. Doubling resources will simply exacerbate that. To truely answer the issue, credit gain needs to be manipulated independantly of crystal and metal.
Reply #4 Top
Advanced suggestions

Make ship wreckage salvagable so that can be a source of income for aggressive players and nice early bonus for killing those native ships.


Or for an easier implementation, why not give every capital ship a passive salvage ability that funds the player that destroyed a ship a percentage of the ship's cost (in credits and metal/crystal) based on the capital ship's level? It would have to be low, maybe 1% per level, so your flagship would start out with a 3% salvage return. This wouldn't be stackable, so only your highest level capital's ability would apply, if you have several in the same grav well.

This would also have the added bonus of encouraging players to attack early and give their economy a boost for doing so, especially if you manage to score the destruction of the enemy capital.

The biggest issue I can see is the late game with huge fleets resulting in rather large incomes from this ability. But, chances are by that point with all the colonies and trade outposts the generic income would be pretty huge already.

Just a funky idea that popped into my mind..
Reply #5 Top

The whole point is that credit gain, will be a low gain, the real gain will be asteroid mining. You double the income rate, you will have a flood of asteroid resources, that will likely spin the game out of balance.


I'm sorry, your not making sense.

If you multiply all resource rates by 2, then it doesn't change the ratio they're given at all! Credits will be doubled, same as minerals and crystals, so there won't be a "flood" of asteroid resources.
Or for an easier implementation, why not give every capital ship a passive salvage ability that funds the player that destroyed a ship a percentage of the ship's cost (in credits and metal/crystal) based on the capital ship's level?


Because it seems rather odd to have salvage crews with your ships when you head out into unsecured, enemy space, and then have them salvage debris during the middle of combat? I mean, capships aren't exactly defensive focused units.
Reply #6 Top
If you multiply all resource rates by 2, then it doesn't change the ratio they're given at all! Credits will be doubled, same as minerals and crystals, so there won't be a "flood" of asteroid resources.


The point I am trying to make is that the game will revolve more around selling resources from crystal and metal. I am not talking about ratio's increasing.

Example

Normal Speed

10c/sec
20m/sec
20c/sec

2x Speed

20c/sec
40m/sec
40c/sec

Better Ratio

20c/sec
25m/sec
25c/sec

The key though, is that time and cost has not decreased, so it still takes the same build times and travel times. What I am trying to say is that at double resources, you have most probably a correct credit income, but you have an unbalanced metal and crystal income. You won't be able to spend those resources quick enough, so it will just become a spendfest on the black market (as credits are the main bottleneck early game).

You will most probably find that strategy will be reduced due to a glut of resources and the ability to just spam basic techs.

The proof will be in the pudding I guess. I just think that doubling resources will not help matters in the long run. I am only basing my experience on most other RTS games, where playing double resource games completely negates any major skill, and is usually used by new players as they don't understand the game mechanics. They just want to have all the shiny toys straight away.

The balance needs to be applied more subtley.
Reply #7 Top
Because it seems rather odd to have salvage crews with your ships when you head out into unsecured, enemy space, and then have them salvage debris during the middle of combat? I mean, capships aren't exactly defensive focused units.


It's not really odd at all. I guess if you want to get into theorycraft, if a capital ship gets beat up that its hull hp is at 10-20%, one would assume it would take quite a lot of metals or whatever construction material as well as various parts to repair the ship. And the capital ship does repair without the need for a repair station or a robotics cruiser. So wouldn't it be logical then to deduce that they do have salvage crews going through wrecks to get the necessary repair components? Even repair drones don't pull material out of nowhere And what about ammo for your fleet? You never have to worry about resupplying it, and ships can't come with an unlimited supply so logically they either manufacture it along the way or salvage it from enemy wrecks. And then there's building fighters/bombers in the middle of nowhere and needing materials.. the list goes on!

You're not even arguing the effect of the idea on game play, rather just theories for how things work behind the scenes And as you can see, using theorycraft to support or debunk ideas can go a bit far. There are some things that are just 'common sense' issues, but this isn't one of them
Reply #8 Top
well, one thing that was intended and that we should keep in mind, was that planets were supposed to be differentiated.

volcaninc planets give most fleet points
terran planets give most pop
ice planents give lots of crystal
astroid give ... well some metal
desert planets ... I think fairly many logistic slots

overall I do agree that credit generation rate should be increased. futhermore, the allegiance penalty could be reduced and the effect of culture centers increased. I mean, the are doing very well for taking over enemy world and spreading culture, but the allegiance bonus you get, 10 % points is fairly low imo, especially since it is about the only thing other than capital relocation that you can do to bring up allegiance. ( of course a few local centres of gouvernment could help, but that is another topic altogether).

one more source of income for aggressive players: plunder, like some orc units could do in warcraft III. if you attack an enemy planet, then you might be able to actually steal ressources from there, making a quick raid a profitable endeavor a something different from a mission to conquer. I believe the carrier's embargo ability is something like that, maybe some other unit could get an upgrade for this. like the krosov siege frig could raid instead of bomb which does not affect planet health.
Reply #9 Top
one more source of income for aggressive players: plunder, like some orc units could do in warcraft III. if you attack an enemy planet, then you might be able to actually steal ressources from there, making a quick raid a profitable endeavor a something different from a mission to conquer.


Bounty: It's not just for pirates.
Reply #10 Top

one more source of income for aggressive players: plunder, like some orc units could do in warcraft III. if you attack an enemy planet, then you might be able to actually steal ressources from there, making a quick raid a profitable endeavor a something different from a mission to conquer.


Bounty: It's not just for pirates.




I am aware of that, but its a different thing to get paid to attack someone or if you steal it from him directly. also that is not dependent on the amount of bounty set against the player and it will (or rather should) require specialised ships.

but yes, bounties are a good take on making more aggressive behavior financially intersting.