Tsed Tsed

Will the AI eventually be z-axis aware in a meaningful way?

Will the AI eventually be z-axis aware in a meaningful way?

As it stands, the AI will react to you using the z-axis, but it won't actively use it on it's own. Even just using it a bit makes battles much more interesting, so I'm curious if the current plan is largely sticking to planar movement, or giving the AI some competence when it comes to the Z-axis.
167,110 views 150 replies
Reply #51 Top
I am currently one of the RTS players who feel alientated by a bad z-axis system, althoe I can't say too much about the game itself, i will not be able to play it untill beta 3 comes out.

*points, beaming*
Um How would flying over or under a gauss cannon stop it from firing at you. I expect that since it floating in space I am going to guess it can rotate whatever way it wants to.

going high enough, obviously.
Reply #52 Top
We really should have a poll or something... 3d movement is required... that the units all level out to an arbitrary plane is enough of a compromise. For the game to hold it's innovative edge you can't limit the 3d movement. The AI also should use the z axis.


Make it very simple... just having it randomly vector up or down a bit so that it comes upon a target from the bottom or the top every so often. It doesn't need to do it intelligently.
Reply #53 Top

Um How would flying over or under a gauss cannon stop it from firing at you.


Same way as going to the left or right of it will -- staying out of its range.
Reply #54 Top
Same way as going to the left or right of it will -- staying out of its range.


Well that makes sense, but why would you do that in the first place, why not just go left or right?
Reply #55 Top
the idea being that if the enemy is smart enough to plug his holes on the plane.
Reply #56 Top

Well that makes sense, but why would you do that in the first place, why not just go left or right?


Think of fleet formations.

They put their strong ships in the front and their weak ships in the back.


Ok.


Now you go left or right and you can put one of those weaker ships closer into range then any of the big scary ships.

So then the enemy moves ships to the right and left to deal with attacks from that angle.


NOw you attack from above or below. Basically the same as attacking from the right or left only it's an ADDITIONAL line of attack. Furthermore, people are less likely to defend against it as you have to have 3D fleet formations to defend against attacks from above or below. But that's the point!


See, I can play supreme commander and have 2d fleet/unit formations. I put strong ships on the front and some defense on the sides. I assume my rear is going to be safe because I've scouted it and it takes all but airpower too long get back there... and my rear units are made of anti air units anyway... so my formation is basically perfect.


We are however talking about a SPACE game. A game in which an arbitrary (that means something you just decided upon) plane (as in the mathematical term for a 2d surface... typically square) is forced upon all players and cannot be either manipulated or disregarded even though there is no reason besides being newbie friendly to have such a plane at all.


I'm ok with this feature being on by default. But I want to be able to turn it off myself. I want be able to orient my ships in directions that are completely different from each other. I want some ships pointing up, some pointing down... some pointing at 45 degree angles or 15 degrees... LET ME DECIDE! Will it be more complicated for me? Sure... but I wanted it to be more complicated. If I don't want that I can turn on the 2d plane again and have all my ships zero out to that orientation.

Consider static defenses. Defenses which don't really move. They'll put the defenses in FRONT of whatever they're defending. But are they putting them above or below? Thus you see the value of attacking from above or below. I know this might mean that the devs have to make their orbital building system more involved... as I don't know if they let you build structures anywhere around a given planet. But that's how it should be.
Reply #57 Top
Hey, I try to place my defenses in a nice, tight clump! No going up / down around 'em!
Reply #58 Top
They put their strong ships in the front and their weak ships in the back.


Or the other way around. I would rather have a meat shield for my caps.

Furthermore, people are less likely to defend against it as you have to have 3D fleet formations to defend against attacks from above or below


I dont know about you, but most of my fleets are in 3D formation.
Reply #59 Top
I'd just like to say that if the AI is not using 3D movement and it's not possible to place defensive structures in 3D it would be best to not allow any 3D movement. Giving the player an edge over the AI is VERY undesirable.

This wouldn't limit the possible use of 3D formations in any way.
Reply #60 Top

I'd just like to say that if the AI is not using 3D movement and it's not possible to place defensive structures in 3D it would be best to not allow any 3D movement. Giving the player an edge over the AI is VERY undesirable.

This wouldn't limit the possible use of 3D formations in any way.


i can also see this as an exploit in multiplayer, why build defences that can only be build in the 2D plane and ships can just move above them..

i think it would be more all around fair to remove the manual 3D movement
Reply #61 Top
i think it would be more all around fair to remove the manual 3D movement


Which would be the worst of all solutions.

Rather make it possible to place structures in 3d and orient your fleet in full 3d. This is what I'm expecting in a space game, not flat pseudo 3d.

The AI anyway will be inadequate for experienced gamers in RTS anyway and a inexperienced player will loose against a seasoned veteran anyway, if he's able to use 3d maneuvers or not.
Reply #62 Top
Rather make it possible to place structures in 3d and orient your fleet in full 3d. This is what I'm expecting in a space game, not flat pseudo 3d.

I think we all agree we'd rather have that. But only the player having the possibility and the AI being too stupid is the worst option IMO. It's far better to not have anyone use full 3D movement and have good 3D formations.

Otherwise I can't agree with the "the AI won't be able to compete anyway" comment. You have games with decent AI and I don't see why Sins should be any worse.
Reply #63 Top
As to structures needing to be be placed in full 3d space, I agree. I think I made that clear above.


As to the AI needing to be able to make use of 3d space... It would be "nice" if it did. However, I'll be playing this game online and I'd rather have the option to play against other people then worry about the AI.


Lets get one thing straight here. ALL AIs in RTS games suck. They all suck.

They're all horrible. They're all predictable. They're all very very very very very very easy to beat.

I don't care what type of game you're talking about... if it's an RTS game and you're playing against the AI... you will win. Unless you set it on super hard mode which just happens to give the AI 10 times the resources you're getting... then you might lose. But the AI's are stupid. They are always stupid. Always have been stupid. And I have no faith in them suddenly getting smart in the next 5 years at least.



So in short, the AI's are never going to be challenging. I have so much of an edge already on any AI that another advantage isn't even meaningful. AI's never do anything sneaky or unpredictable. They might be tough once or twice but after that you notice they're basically just playing the same game over and over again. You know when they're going to do what when and can anticipate it.
Reply #64 Top
Im not too concerned with Player AI but rather Control AI.

The ability for you to leave it up to the Control AI to control your ships in a battle whilst you are doing something else.

Atm , because they cant move your ships in 3d to avoid guass , the Control AI will never be fully trusted by a player.
Reply #65 Top
I don't see why that capability couldn't be easily added to the control AI. Obviously the player SHOULD tell the AI how to make open and stage the attack. Managing it afterwards is all it has to do. So for example you might tell your fleet to go above a planet and then attack it from above... or below... then after that the AI should simply move the force in from that direction... just as it would if you attacked from the side or head on... whathaveyou...


Be careful not to restrict the player's options to what the AI can understand... or you'll have very stupid game play.


Never forget, the AI is stupid and will always be stupid. If you restrict everyone to the tactical understanding of the AI then we'll be playing tictactoe in no time.
Reply #66 Top
I don't see why that capability couldn't be easily added to the control AI. Obviously the player SHOULD tell the AI how to make open and stage the attack. Managing it afterwards is all it has to do. So for example you might tell your fleet to go above a planet and then attack it from above... or below... then after that the AI should simply move the force in from that direction... just as it would if you attacked from the side or head on... whathaveyou...


Be careful not to restrict the player's options to what the AI can understand... or you'll have very stupid game play.


Never forget, the AI is stupid and will always be stupid. If you restrict everyone to the tactical understanding of the AI then we'll be playing tictactoe in no time.


I think that in homeworld this would be true since it operates on one layer - the focussed control and micro of ships. But in Sins we have a dual layered skill game.

The first layer is the whole insystem microing like homeworld. Whereby you can do all sorts - colony-distact , z-axis evasion , circling evasion , plus a 101 others micros.

The second layer is the zoomed out solar system view with the whole phaselane movement game. I think this layer of gameplay is unique to sins , and is suprisingly challenging being able to get your units phased to the right areas of your empire at the right time in the right combinations. The game would only be tic-tac-toe if it did not have this layer.

Because of this dual layer of gameplay , Ironclad can afford to automate one of the layer whilst giving the option to challenge within that layer. The problem is that the automation sucks atm , which means players are presented with almost 2 games to play at the same time. I also agree that giving the control AI z-axis awareness would probably help improve the control AI and the players trust in it.



Reply #67 Top
Agreed, I'd rather see smarter AI using all axis then no z-asix at all, but if the AI is not smart enough to realise that the fastest way to the other side of the wide line of Gaus is Over or under, then it would really suck.
Reply #68 Top

I'm gone for a week and here we are again, rehashing very old arguments on items that aren't going to change dramatically.

As 3D has already been discussed to death in many other threads, I'm not going to re-argue these points here. I will mention a couple of things I picked up by skimming this thread, however:

1) Watch the language please!  We don't mind the occasional colorful word, but some posts really got out of hand.  Swearing like a sailor will not be tolerated.

2) Cancelling movement orders (ala Supreme Commander) is a great idea. Someone should post that in the Gameplay feedback thread (stickied at the top of the forum).

3) The screenshots we've been releasing haven't been "staged."  They're taken from single- and multiplayer games Ironclad's been having internally.  All we've been doing is moving the camera around and removing the interface in the same way anyone else could.

Reply #69 Top
Limiting the the tactics of the game to what the AI understands is a horrible horrible horrible bad bad awful idea... I can't think of a single good game that was ever made where that was done. It's gameplay suicide. The AI is by it's very nature... stupid. By limiting gameplay to "stupid" you make the gameplay stupid. A game with stupid gameplay is in itself stupid.


Thus by bringing the game down to the level of the AI you've really just made it only worthy of being played BY the AI... ie humans need not bother showing up.


The whole beauty of RTS games is that AI's are so bad at them. AI's RULE at TBS games. Try one. They're always pretty respectable... try a chess game and see what I mean. What kills them is tactics. Moving in and out... doing four or five different things at once... Formations are typically something AI's don't understand the value of... if htey use them they always use the same ones without understanding their various purposes. Hell, most AI's don't even understand how size up enemy forces. Name an RTS game where the AI didn't attack a force 10 times it's size with some nonsense? You see that in Supcom all the time. Instead of massing for a killing attack or focusing on actually dangerous parts of your base... they seem to almost "wander" into your front line which you've prepared with layers of impenetrable defenses... with not so much as 1 percent of the force it would take to your line. they also seem to have no awareness of what kinds of units you're using.



All of this is makes the AI pathetic in anything but overwhelming number advantages. This has always been the way it is... Any game that lowered the tactical depth to the level of the AI would simply suck. So seriously... don't even try. It's not worth it. A good example of this is Ground Control 2. The AI didn't even know how to use the special abilities on the units. Completely stupid. But in MP that game was god like (prior to a patch they added to the game to make it more newbie friendly). The tactical depth was really just amazing. And there's no way short of having a supercomputer handy that an AI is going to match that. Look, the human brain is more powerful then any super computer currently around... if you want to entertain this super computer it's going to take either wit a computer can't hope to make on it's own... another human being matching their wits against it... or... boobs... I don't know... the AI isn't going to impress me...
Reply #70 Top
The only reason AI's are better at TB games is because they don't have to process their AI in real time, IMO. And, even then, they really do suck because programmers just can't match human player's adaptive and creative capacity.
Reply #71 Top

I think the main problem is that it really doesn't add as much tactical depth as some people claim it does so it really isn't worth the added complexity.



Ok, I like 3D movements, but I won't lie to myself that the reason I like that system is because some tactical depth reason. You're absolutely right, there isn't much things to add in term of tactical. To be honest, Hegemonia has that system, it's so useless that most of the time I forgot it was there, Nexus: Jupiter incident (notice the italic) did it so well by itself that I don't need to do it by myself, Homeworld? Yes it's there, but only on the hardest level of PDF mod that I need to use 3D tactical movement, most of the time, again, I forgot it's even there.

The battle system in Sins is pretty simplistic. I don't mean to undermine the game btw, I'm perfectly fine with it understanding this is a 4X empire bulding&space combat hybrid game and not a hardcore space tac game. What I mean is it's safe to say the game will need a hell load more features for the battlesystem to actually justify the need of a 3D movement tactical depth wise (Shield orientation, fire angle, point defense, blank point, turning rate, hardpoint ...etc...). So yes, let me repeat, you're correct when you talk about tactical depth since honestly, 3D movement will add little to nothing in that department IMO.



Now let's talk about the oversight that I think you're making. Tactical depth isn't the only thing that a 3D movement add however, there is also presentation, and 3D movement add A LOT to that area.


Like I said, although most space game have 3D movements, they're done automatically, while the players mostly pay little thought, this makes the battle look real. It's space, you have ships on the top, on the side and under you. Also, having 1 extra dimension allow more possibility to make shift during engagement (think about it, having another movement vector means you have another 360 arch of movement). Maybe I haven't play all of them (although I dare say I play a lot) that Sins is probably the very first game and only game I ever saw where spaceships come to a complete stop when they engage. In all other games, the ship still make a little shift in the movement even when they lock into a target. Realistic, coolness, exciting ...etc... you name it.


Ships moving isn't much a problem if not combining to the 2D moving of most ship. Becuase like I said, for the presentation it doesn't feel like Space. Right now it feels like we have a bunch of vehicle running on an invisible ground rather than flying through space.


(up or down, you still can't get any further away from the planet than you would on a 2d plane since it's a spherical arena)



It is, when you have a lot of stuffs and something is trying to run through. If you consider the evelation is like a lane, while relating to a planet their position is the same, but having 3 structure on one evelation is like having 3 obstacle on 1 lane, and you only have one lane any way. Having 3 structure on 3 different evalation, even if you only use 1 lane, it stills mean there is only one obstacle, and of course, if you use all the evalations, it means you have 3 lanes (relative number figure ofcourse).


Which leads to another problem, traffic. I haven't test the lastest built yet so I don't know if this was fixed or not, but usually it kinda funny seeing the automatic ships (trade/refinery ship) have to zig zac around my facilities to get to their destination and lot of times ... get stuck (I once had a trade ship got stuck at a refinery for about 10 minutes before he could get away). Again, presentation wise, it feels like a truck running on an invisble ground of a crowed street while it has all the space above and below for itself.

Reply #72 Top
Rather make it possible to place structures in 3d and orient your fleet in full 3d. This is what I'm expecting in a space game, not flat pseudo 3d.


This could get too complex. Plus wed have to have a lot more tactical slots to work with to make an efficient wall. Defense turrets werent a big thing in HW2, they are in Sins.

And did no one pay attention to what Yarlen said at all. If you would like to express your opinion about this topic, dont. Its not going to chage, so build a bridge and get over it cause this game isnt HW2.
Reply #73 Top
The only reason AI's are better at TB games is because they don't have to process their AI in real time, IMO. And, even then, they really do suck because programmers just can't match human player's adaptive and creative capacity.

The AI is getting better and better. TW series AI has improved dramatically since RTW - both the strategic (turn-based) and tactical (real-time) AI.

I think the AI in RT games should only evaluate its position in bearably long time intervals. I've seen AIs being crap simply because it was trying to constantly adapt to the current situation which meant it never completed anything really. The battles are different naturally. I don't know how to separate the two AIs in a game like Sins but I hope there are two very distinct levels of AI that don't interfere with one another.
Reply #74 Top


And did no one pay attention to what Yarlen said at all. If you would like to express your opinion about this topic, dont. Its not going to chage, so build a bridge and get over it cause this game isnt HW2.


By that logic this topic should not exist at all. I'm aware of what will likely and not likely make it into the game. That doesn't mean we won't talk about, and it's not like this is an alien topic, it has been talked a lot of time by a lot of people. If anything it just to signal the developer this is something we find desirable. After all, it's not like this is the first or only a few people talking about it.




So no, I'm not trying to whine them into including this feature, and I'm in no rush. It's just a hope that they will give consideration, may be in a patch, or even as late as an expack, or hell even the next game down the line, I just try to justify that consideration. I may sound critical, that's the whole point about giving opinion, but I'm happy with the product right now, so it's naturally to talk about improving the experience.


But, if I find a feature that I found within a reasonable limit but will just stop talking about, at that moment I fail as a gamer.






Reply #75 Top
TW series AI has improved dramatically since RTW


Honestly, no. The TW AIs always have been the big weak point in this otherwise excellent series. They used the same AI code for Rome and for Medieval II which failed twice at delivering a good enemy AI.

This could get too complex.


No, it wouldn't get too complex. With the limited space of Sins maps you can't get lost at all, 3d or not.

It's just one key-stroke more (or if you have a mouse with lots of buttons, one click more) to move your ships in 3d.

But, if I find a feature that I found within a reasonable limit but will just stop talking about, at that moment I fail as a gamer.


As he said.

If we players think something is a bad decision by the devs, well, their bad for we won't stop telling them that we find it a bad decision.

They probably won't change it, but if we stop complaining they won't change it for sure, which is a bit of a higher probability then just probably not.

PS. speaking about complexity.

I don't think giving orders in this kind of situation is easy, 3d or not.




I was the green one. Oh, and I won, sadly.

Why sadly? Well, the reason I won was that the AI fled from battle after about 10 minutes, abandoning the planet. While it was fleeing I was able to destroy most of its carriers. Stupid AI.