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Disapointed by summoner

Disapointed by summoner

I find the summoner  spec... boring. I try to love it because it's my playstyle but I find it not enjoyable to level my sov.


Only 1 summon / spell, why? There is a maintenance cost so why restrict the number of summons? Increase the maintenance for best summon, but allow us to create army of summons! The drawback is that you only get 1 summon with the summoner perk, and you need to wait level 4 before unlocking a second one (mage tree) !

 

Linear progression. Only earth magic get some summons, you must take mage spec, and even here the progression is really linear : Ice ele > Air > Fire then a branching and more linear unlock. Combined with the 1 summon limit, progressing as a summoner isnt exciting. Add the +1 / +2 summons node, more useful for the tactical summon than the strategic one I find.

I think fire, air, water, life & death magic perk need 1 tactical summon & 1 strategic summon. More branching for summons in magic tree, so you can unlock the summons you need for complet you army and each game can be different. I would prefer less summons in the mage tree, so you could buy some other magic (Fire, air etc... with some summons inclued in the list).

 

With the linear progression, miss diversity: spec in necromancy (be able to raise dead troops as permanent undead troops on the strategic map, lich, momies, ghost etc...), elemental summoner (all the elemental creatures), beast master, demonologiste etc... I was a huge fan of master of magic, and I remember that in function of your spellbooks you got acces to different summons.

 

It's just my feeling after playing LH.

 

78,862 views 65 replies
Reply #51 Top

I've been walking my current sovereign down the summoner tree  He had the summoner ability & a ring that adds +1 to summons levels.  Pulling out huge elementals anywhere I feel like on the tactical board is a huge deal & sure does feel pretty powerful.  The high level Air Elementals in particular have been fight changers.

Reply #52 Top

Quoting quartzium, reply 20
I love Fallen Enchantress, but MoM has the best-designed, most fun magic system I ever played with.  Even if it was unbalanced.

In MoM, your nodes, inhabitants and champions would generate "magic", which if I remember correctlly you'd distribute between research (only spells came ut of this), Mana, and Power.  Power represented the amount of mana you could cast on each turn, and it increased in a arithmetic progression (i.e. to jump from 100 power points to 105, you had to spend 100+101+102+103+104=510 magic points).  So if you had 105 spell points, you could cast 5 summoning spells that costed 20 mana each.

Almost all spells and magic creatures had some mana upkeep, so balance was kept by how carefully you had to develop you power and how much mana you got left after all upkeep.

End of quartzium's quote

Sorry, I know the thread has moved on now but I just had to post to say I agree. I think it is also worth saying that the reason MoM magic was unbalanced wasn't because of the core mechanics, it was because of the fun but unbalanced spells/units/etc they chose to populate the game with (and the fact that the AI couldn't use most of them very well).

The MoM mechanics were fairly simple but they worked well and provided a good trade off between the three ways you could improve/use your magical power. Choices, its all about having meaningful choices.

I think this is the reason I find Civ 4 BTS such a good game, so many choices and a similar allocation system to channel your income into either research, gold or culture (culture was pretty meh but the trade off between research and gold was key to the game).

Reply #53 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 38

My 2 cents (to recap) is this:

1. Getting the AI to summon things effectively is a lot of work.

2. The current balance doesn't make summoning that effective a strategy.

Therefore, I'd like to see summoning boosted substantially.

In tactical battle, I think you should be able to summon multiples. You could have each additional summon cost more mana than the last.

I think that alone would make things funner.  But I also think that the LEVEL of what gets summoned should be the same as the caster.

 
End of Frogboy's quote

I would like to add that the AI needs a counter  to the summons. I have never seen it use the "sunder"-spell, whereas I abused it like hell...

Since somebody cited MoM: Is it possible to make the LEVEL of the summon dependent on the mana you spend? Say, you have a base cost of summons and can choose to spend more mana to increase the level? (With a cap to avoid a totally OP super unit)

Reply #54 Top

It seems like a simple, consistent fix (not that I've seen LH, so maybe not) would be to add skills to the summoner tree that would increase the summoning cap as you go along.  

Reply #55 Top

I am just finishing my game on "expert" - playing Resoln and basically only with summons. Was not difficult at all, numerous summons also give you a good boost to your power rating for some reason. Later summons have quite nice abilities: fire elementals decimate normal troops (overpower), air hit hard and move fast, earth hard to destroy etc. They regenerate, cast death protection, another one cast mud allowing basically to control battle etc. Not to mention spam of skels ...

Very enjoyable, and not underpowered at all. Have to test it now on ridiculous.

Reply #56 Top

As one who enjoys summoners, I figured I'd drop my .02. It's late, I haven't slept well, and this is mostly on the fly, so hopefully it flows well and makes sense.

Let's start with the good. The starting Warg for the Summoner Trait is pretty good, and about right for the cost. The Familiar can be quite useful, and will need to be taken into consideration when making changes to summons. There is a good variety of summons, which is always good.

Now for the iffy part, the elementals. I like the Elemental summons, in concept, but in reality they could use some help. The +1/+2 to summons can only do so much, and forcing the player to get them in a specific order does not help the player who lacks certain elemental nodes. Instead, I would suggest one of three things:

1) Summon Elemental – Replace the four summons with a single summon that then allows the player which element they wish to summon. The biggest drawback to this is that there is no mechanic in the game to support this. I guess you could use the party screen (where you choose the character to cast a buff on) and replace the party with each of the four elementals.

2) Unlock all four elemental summons at the same time, allowing the player to choose which elemental they wish to summon. This would be much easier to implement, would allow for more summons overall (3 more to be precise), and would allow summoners to focus on the element they have the nodes for.

3) Split the Path of the Mage and create a Path of the Summoner. This would allow the Mage to have more casty spells, and allow for a full-on summoner path. This, however, would require quite a bit of work and may be outside the scope of the current project/schedule.

Of the three choices, I prefer the third, followed by the second, with the first one being the least impressive. The main reason I like the third is that it grants a second mage tree. I have to admit that I find it odd that there is only one magic-focused path, and three melee focused paths (and one commander), in a game focused on magic. ;)

Now, as for the summons themselves, if you go with #1 or #2, I would have them scaled to the level of the summoner, and limited in quantity to the number of elemental nodes they currently control, plus one. Additional elemental summons beyond the first have an incrementally increased mana cost and upkeep (eg: +15% per add'l summon). Then balance the elementals and allow them to gain new abilities as the summoner reaches higher levels (eg: Ice Elemental slows on hit from 1-4, at L5 they gain the Slow spell with a 3 turn recharge, 2 turn at L6, 1 turn at L7, and can cast every turn at L8, then they gain a new ability at L9, etc).

#1 and #2 would also allow you to add in more types of summons, to complement the Ignys and Crags you already have. It's a shame you don't have any Mephits, as those could be a good low level strategic elemental summon.

For #3, you could have the first page focus on elemental summons, as opposed to the elemental schools, and the second page could focus on non-elemental summons and overall summoner buffs (lower maint cost). For the elemental trees, you could use the Shrills, you could modify the Assassin Demons into Mephits of sorts (alter texture, give them an aura, etc), have both lesser and greater elementals, rock spiders, ice warg, ignys, etc. Non-elemental summons could use naja, skath, hergons, etc.  If I went this route, then I would probably put a debuff of sorts (maybe -x levels?) on summons that are not in the same army as the summoner (with some high level traits to lessen that debuff, allowing late game summoners to continue to grow).

Reply #57 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 38
My 2 cents (to recap) is this:

1. Getting the AI to summon things effectively is a lot of work.

2. The current balance doesn't make summoning that effective a strategy.

Therefore, I'd like to see summoning boosted substantially.

In tactical battle, I think you should be able to summon multiples. You could have each additional summon cost more mana than the last.

I think that alone would make things funner.  But I also think that the LEVEL of what gets summoned should be the same as the caster.

 
End of Frogboy's quote

I think that's a little bit on the overpowering side of things. I thought the concept was to keep armies at 9 units max? I think an effort should be made that doesn't allow more summons if you dont have enough slots even in the tactical mode. This is why I like the way it is now as it doesn't feel overpowering and has the perfect restrictions imposed.

Reply #58 Top

Quoting Sythion, reply 50

Just played a game as Resoln with with summons to test this, and I don't think I've ever ROFLstomped everything in the game so hard. Granted, I was blessed with a large number of shards, but it was not extreme. I actually think this tactic is slightly OP if played right, which makes me feel a little narcissistic when looking at everyone's complaints (again).
End of Sythion's quote

 

In my original post I never said Summoner wasn't good, I just complained about it be boring to level, mainly because of the linear progress/unlock of summons. Playing a summoner is always the same each game. I want be able to summon creatures that fit my playstyle & situation, not be limited to a set of creatures that are always the same at x level each game.

The summoner tree need to be open, If I need a tank, I should be able to unlock a tank, a ranged creature etc... and instead of a progression where I unlock more powerfull creatures, I think the progression should be more horizontal, each creature having advantages/disadvantages, and they progress in power as my summoner progress.

Of course you still have a linear progress in the form of some summons unlocking when reaching level X. But please no long chain of unlocking where you must have creature A for unlock creature B and after creature C etc...

 

Having more summonings in the fire/earth/water etc... tree could help for more diversity if you want play a more hybrid summoner.

Quest & loot could give some special summons (like the golem), unique strategic summons (1use), or an item that give you new tactical summons who get advantage of your summoners skills and could give some uniqness at each game.

 

EDIT: Power progression: instead of +x level summon, would be more interesting to have perk that give x stat(s) bonus to all your creatures for each summoner level. So all your creatures win in power as yuou level up, and no need to disband and resummon for get the bonus. If a new summoner class is created, it could be the base class bonus, all summon get a base stats/power bonus for each summoner level. So you don't have anymore low level summons, mid summons, high tier summons, but unique summons with a purpose, that evolve and always usefull.

Reply #59 Top

That's the issue at the moment ... pretty much all of the paths are

a) Boring mostly due to lots of what looks like "filler" such as +1 level per summons

b) Hard to max out due to slower leveling.

Personally I really wish that the summoner path dovetailed more with the actual magic lines.  Summon Fire elemental requires 4 dots in Fire line and 4 dots in summoner line for example as opposed to being a sperate skill on it's own.

Reply #60 Top

Quoting vanderbilt_grad, reply 59

Personally I really wish that the summoner path dovetailed more with the actual magic lines.  Summon Fire elemental requires 4 dots in Fire line and 4 dots in summoner line for example as opposed to being a sperate skill on it's own.
End of vanderbilt_grad's quote

 

Only if they change the leveling, because with the actual leveling/unlocking rate it will make the summoner even harder to complet!But i'm agree each path need at least 1 strategic summoning and a tactical one, like earth. The path are meant to be trade of all jack (enchantments, Direct damages, summons etc...). You could have 1 elemental summon in each path, and others in summoner path but with different powers. Like a lesser/normal elemental in the path, and a highter/noble elemental in the summoner tree.

Reply #61 Top

Maybe suggestions for alternative summon skills. Each summon skill should provide a benefit to all your summons, and a thing you can summon.

Eg

Mirror Magic: Enables the summoning of 'Mirror Elemental'. Allows casting of any summon spell one additional time.

Fire Elementals: Enables the summoning of 'Fire Elemental'. Any summoned creatures get +1 fire damage per fire shard.

Air elementals: Enables the summoning of 'Air Elemental'. Any summoned creatures get +1 initiative per air shard.

Wolf Run: Enables the summoning of 'Wolf'. Any summoned creatures get +1 movement.

Demonic Tutor: Enables the summoning of 'Assassin Demon'. Any summoned creatures get +1 level.

Reply #62 Top

Quoting parrottmath, reply 12
...I would like to see more types of summoning, for example. If you have Water, summon water elemental. If you have Air, summon air elemental. If you have Air and Water summon an Ice elemental. If you have fire and air summon a steam elemental (or the like). If you have fire and earth summon an angry cooked frog. The point is there are not enough summon spells to account for 1 summon per caster...
End of parrottmath's quote
I really like this idea and it got me to thinking (ruh roh...). 

The old WoM game had a great lore, one where the shards are vitally important to a sov.  So, having shards be a centerpiece of high level summoning (there would still be low level summons like wolves, skeletons, etc. that are not shard dependent and are similar to existing summons for early game/etc.) fits the old lore.  The idea is that high level summons require shards, shards are elemental so they'd summon elementals, and a shard can only be dedicated to 1 summon at a time (limiting the number of these high level summons).

We have the following elemental shard types: fire, air, water, earth, life, death.  Combos and possible summons and possible powers (this is very quickly created, just for discussion sake, and there are holes to be filled/etc. by those smarter than I) are:

fire + water shards = steam elemental (negates metal armor?)
fire + earth shards = magma elemental (negates melee weapons?)
fire + air shards   = flashfire elemental(negates arrows/bolts/ranged attacks?)

air + water shards = ice elemental (slows attacks)
air + earth shards = dust elemental (blinds)

water + earth shards = mud elemental (slows movement non-flyers)

fire + life shards = current fire elemental (sets aflame -- damage per turn?)
fire + death shards = ash elemental (drains life/skill levels temporarily?)

air + life shards = current air elemental (tornado -- moves target to random tile?)
air + death shards = smothering elemental (prevents spell casting next turn?)

water + life shards = current water elemental ('drowns', rooting target in place next turn?)
water + death shards = wither elemental (shrivels -- shrinks in size?)

earth + life shards = current earth elemental (smash/bash -- knocks back/down)
earth + death shards = enveloper elemental (envelopes - target successfully hit loses next turn?)

The level of the summoned elemental would be the caster's level as per frog's post.  Summons could be strategic (with per turn mana maintenance) or in tactical combat (cost mana to summon but no upkeep as they disappear after tactical battle).

If you have say 1 fire, 2 air, 2 water, no earth, 1 life (and so no death?) you could have:

a: 1 fire elemental (fire + life) and 2 ice elementals (2x [air + water])

or b: 1 air elemental (air + life) and 1 steam elemental (fire + water) and 1 ice (air + water)
etc.
You could summon whichever based upon what you were fighting, then unsummon/resummon vs. a new type of foe, or as new shards are acquired.
Shards used for summons would not provide mana each turn (that'd be double-dipping!).

Problems are many:

-are there enough meaningful/useful damage types/penalties/etc for this many elementals
-balance (the more design elements there are [pun intended] the harder they are to balance)
-lots of new programming
-AI's disadvantage would increase as it'd be hard to program effective use of this (this is a biggee...)

Reply #63 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 8

I don't remember how summoning was done in MOM.  How did they do it?

Since I'm working on the AI handling summons better, I would like to see summons be made more worthwhile.
End of Frogboy's quote

 

Hello Frogboy,

 

I made a post regarding this (and the magic system as a whole) back during the beta for Fallen Enchantress. Here is the post:

 

https://forums.elementalgame.com/430803

 

Basically, the magic system has far too many "mana dump" spells and far too few "mana upkeep" spells to keep things interesting. The player is asked to manage gildar expenses and upkeep, but the paucity of enchantment spells, the limitation of enchantment spell targets (only champions in most (all?) cases) and the lack of multiple cast summons means that the player almost never has to manage mana upkeep outside of the beginning of the game.

Summoning spells that cost upkeep per turn but are not limited by a "one per caster" mechanism would make mana management more interesting, in my opinion.

Reply #64 Top

i agree with frogboy, it should be possible to cast mutliple summons with maybe more mana cost for each further summon of the same type. but i think it shoud also be possible to summon more than one at the strategic level (with also more cost). why not have an army of summons if you are a summoner and have the reqired many pool and many income?! i think it would make the magic tree and the magicians in a whole more valuable.

Reply #65 Top

The easiest way to get Summoning viable is to summon groups of weaker elementals. This could be based on "unit size", so getting a number of ice elementals (human sized) in a stack is fairly easy, while getting several Earth Elementals is a lot more tough.