Bingjack Bingjack

[.86] [Feedback] Trained armies *still* feel like Glass Cannons.

[.86] [Feedback] Trained armies *still* feel like Glass Cannons.

Now that the game is starting to emphasize training armies again, as I use them I find that the "glass cannon effect" is still pronounced. If I recall, this was a big issue in WoM.

 

Now, it's not *as* bad as WoM. There are more mitigating factors in play. The Ai can now occasionally one up you on initiative, and destroy the combat effectiveness of one of your stacks. It is generally more intelligent than before, though there's a ways to go. In most combats, however, I'm finding that I dont actually want my armies to get into combat, saving them for either overwhelming first strikes, or coups de grace.

 I definitely think there should be units fulfilling a high attack/low defense "striker" role. And there is inherent tactical strategy involved in that, keeping your armies back out of harms way until the last possible second while anticipating the AI advancement.  But right now it's generally not something the AI can hope to cope with, it is pretty effortlessly outmaneuvered. Moreover, it doesn't feel right, conceptually.  It would be different if most units had to go toe to toe for a while, rather than first strike wins.

 

Army stacks rack up ridiculous attack values with greater numbers, and even armored units are either wiped out with one good hit, or their combat effectiveness gutted because attack value decreases so profoundly with lost members.  The system somewhat counter-intuitively favors strong solo units with high defense for actual tanking, because their attack value does not diminish, over a literal *army* of guys with shields. It makes me question why you'd increase the cost of your units by adding defense at all. (Conversely "Call to Arms" spell makes me wonder why you wouldn't max out every possible aspect of your units, or bother building military production improvements, but that is another thread).

 

Now, I cant remember off the top of my head how other tactical games with more conventional stack systems approach this, and I'm not willing to reinstall AOW, Kings Bounty, HOMM, etc to check.  If I recall there may have been degradation in combat ability with lost numbers.  But in those games you were generally dealing with much higher stack sizes, in the dozens and hundreds, as opposed to the 3, 4, 5 progressions, so the degradation was much more gradual.

 

An army is not necessarily the sum of its parts. Having a hundred thousand men does not allow you to strike with the force of a nuclear weapon. A hundred guys with clubs can't do anything against a single tank.  But what they are is much more survivable, and able to win most conflicts of attrition against roughly equivalent but smaller forces.

 

I think stack size should contribute primarily to survivability in terms of hit points, and the number of hits it takes to remove the squad from the battle. Offensive Potency should come primarily from superior tech/training/experience.  I think there's room to model that kind of degradation of effectiveness, but not in such a pronounced fashion. Attack rating shouldn't stack one on top of the other, but rather something more like a +1 for each additional squad member, not +10+20+30, until even low tech units are one-shotting entire planets. Otherwise it de-emphasizes the importance of the stack's basic equipment/tech level.

 

Alternatively, you may also want to institute a more conventional, open stack system, where each visible figure represents 10 troops, so losing individual troops results in more granular changes.  Honestly, you may want to do this in any event.  Creating an army at a set size, and never being able to add more troops to it, or merge it with other units is counter-intuitive, and defies thirty years of strategy game convention, without a compelling reason for doing so. But again, that is another thread.

 

 

Just my opinion, and if anyone actually read this, I appreciate you taking the time to do so.

 

 

31,019 views 77 replies
Reply #26 Top


Personally I think heroes should gain multiple attacks and utilize weapons of similar strength to regular units, as that would probably help a little with the excessive damage ratings outweighing defense. A lot of units are like this. War trolls, ogres, dragons.. all have attack ratings that bypass any reasonable units defense, but cannot defend themselves against arrows to well.. save their lives.

@Alstein calculating hp loss this way would be needlessly complicated and require an entirely new combat model. In all seriousness, given that your empire/kingdom needed to research a technology in order to group units together, it is unlikely that effort was put towards researching 'how to stand around together' but rather a tactical formation to utilize and protect the members of the group. It can be assumed that those units shuffle around to protect the weaker figures in the group until it is no longer viable to do so. The actual number could be tweaked but 50% seems a fair starting point.

Also perhaps just as importantly elemental damage when tacked onto a regular weapon probably shouldn't bypass defense.

Reply #27 Top

i think those monsters still miss spells and skill

i mean ofc dragons are gonna breath right? :D

Reply #28 Top

Quoting AAndrewKnight, reply 25

Quoting Bingjack, reply 23but neither is making weapon damages *more* similar.

Not necessarily more similar, just weaker, so we would have, for instance 1, 2, 5, 8, 10 instead of 10, 20, 50, 80, 100 damage. So that it is not possible to kill a unit in one, or even two or three strikes, unless you use a very very late weapon against an unarmed opponet.
End of AAndrewKnight's quote

 

The thing I don't like about that, is that if you're still using that multiplicative model, it still makes for profound drop off in unit effectiveness by taking damage when the weapon's damage gets to the 5-10 point range.  It just makes the effect less pronounced with lower weapon tech.

I'm fine with diminishing combat effectiveness being modeled to some degree, but I don't want to have to retreat a unit unless I fear its death. If I have an overwhelming fear of letting my army units get their shields dirty because it kneecaps their offensive potential  until they are healed, they are still very "glassy".

I'm aware this is a factor in many strategy games where diminishing squad size limits the amount of damage they will do. But in most of those games, we're dealing with larger squad/stack sizes, and the diminishing is more gradual.  To a large extent taking damage to HP already limits your offensive potential, because it's that much less time you'll be able to hang around inflicting damage (assuming combat isn't first hit wins). I'm not sure how necessary it is to strongly emphasize diminishing offense in a game with squad sizes of 3, 4, and 5.  To some extent in any strategy game, you need to be able to count on known quantities.

 

I dont think its going to be a simple one or the other solution. It will probably take a little of this, little of that.

 

Bottom line is, the game is designed around the idea of players building armies. Yet in every iteration of the game back to WoM, players have sought to avoid doing this, first by using summons, then by using Champion spam. We've nerfed those to make that less practical/fun, but armies are still kind of your ugly cousin that your mom is making you take to the dance.  I just think that trained armies need to take fewer opportunities to be a drag.

Reply #29 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 1
(or HP increased).
End of Frogboy's quote
YES, a HUNDRED TIMES YES!

I know Derek wants 3-minutes combat, but if the result is that combat is boring because it's flawed beyond repaired, then it's better not to have combat in the first place!

I mean, 3-turns cast or not, fireball 1-hit kills anything with 1 fire shard or Evoker I, making all further upgrades useless! What's the point of making strong and stronger spells, what's the point of making them upgradeable if a basic version is enough to wipe the tactical map clean of (elite) units?

So make it 5 minutes; it's not a big change and people still play Armored Princess after all.

 

Maybe the heroes should just use different weapons. It would be much easier to balance things that way, and it makes sense that heroes have unique weapons. However, this needs a lot of added content, and a lot of checking if the balance is correct. Although I guess the balancing needs to be done anyways.
End of quote

The solution shouldn't be to make artifacts as ridiculous as Heart of the Glacier (I don't understand the point of a 90-damage weapon. It has such high attack values that it almost ignores armor and 1-hit kills almost anything). The solution is to make heroes progression MUCH more significant, with higher strength values, instead of nerfing them all the time. And then to reduce the power of the higher end artifacts.

 

Because right now, heroes feel like peasants who've stumbled upon artifacts, instead of Conan with a rusty sword being able to decapitate demons.

Reply #30 Top

There is one pretty straightforward way to deal with this - one that thousands of wargames have already hit upon.  Simultaneous damage.  Give the attacker a damage bonus, but make both units hit at the same time, either way.  This allows you to keep damage breaking down your units effectiveness, which is good, but eliminates that whole "first strike" issue.

Reply #31 Top

Quoting wickedmurph, reply 30
There is one pretty straightforward way to deal with this - one that thousands of wargames have already hit upon.  Simultaneous damage.  Give the attacker a damage bonus, but make both units hit at the same time, either way.  This allows you to keep damage breaking down your units effectiveness, which is good, but eliminates that whole "first strike" issue.
End of wickedmurph's quote

This is interesting.  I like this.  However, it could make ranged units a bit overpowered, unless you plan on having ranged attacks swap hits as well.

I've found that heavy armor actually IS a good deterrent against death.  I had knights armed with swords who got demolished by enemy spear maidens because they were armored and my swords couldn't handle it.  I think the issue might be that spears are perhaps a little too good vs armor. 

Reply #32 Top

Quoting wickedmurph, reply 30
There is one pretty straightforward way to deal with this - one that thousands of wargames have already hit upon.  Simultaneous damage.  Give the attacker a damage bonus, but make both units hit at the same time, either way.  This allows you to keep damage breaking down your units effectiveness, which is good, but eliminates that whole "first strike" issue.
End of wickedmurph's quote

 

Lots of great tactical games *don't* do this, as well. I'm personally not a fan of simultaneous turns.  A perfectly valid part of tactical turn based thinking is being able to choose weaker targets precisely because you know they wont get a counter attack, and leaving another target for a stronger teammate.   FE is out of whack at present, but it's perfectly possible to make a sound tactical system without resorting to simultaneous turns.

 

Reply #33 Top
Hi! I agree with Bingjack. I don't like units' attacks stacking. Here is my suggestion: For example, I have a unit of 4 swordsmen (each with attack power 11). This unit is attacking an enemy unit of 2 "warriors" without an armor. The total attack power of my unit shouldn't be 4x11=44, but it shuld be calculated by the number of attacking men x the number of defenders - that is two swordsmen against one warrior - 44 attack power / 2 defenders = 22. Attack power would be different every time you are attacking an enemy unit. Then this attack will be put against enemy's defense (after "dodge check", which would favorize enemy "warriors", because they have no armor and thus are more agile than heav armored swordsmen). Another example: my 4 swordsmen are attacking a group of 7 warriors - 44 attack power / 7 defenders = roughly 6 attack power. And excuse my not-so-good english...:)
Reply #34 Top

Personally I believe that armies need more HP.. I usually let them stand behind and gather exp (and with that helath) while one or two champions do the dirty work.

Reply #35 Top

Besides simultaneous damage or just one way damage, there are some compromises: damage only if you don't kill the defending units, simultaneous damage but limit to one counterstrike, or so forth.   This makes for some tactical decisions.  Units with high armor suddenly gain value for absorbing the brunt of the blow, and then units with higher attack can sweep in and mop up.

The problem isn't glass cannons.  There should always be  role for a high damage unit.  It's that there's no other role right now and that void can be filled with defenders, or maybe buff/curse units.

Reply #36 Top

1) Units should have more HP

2) weapons that cost no resources should be weaker (or at least not ignore armor)

3) archers should have to choose not only bow but also Arrow type. (stone arrows vs Steel arrows) the latter costs metal.

4) Chainmail should be the natural counter to all non-metal weapons (other than magic)

5) Plate should be the natural counter to all metal-based weapons. and by extension make non-metal weapons pretty worthless too.

-> A Plate soldier vs Plate soldier battle should be pretty long. (by that I mean it takes more than 3 turns for one to kill the other)

6) Mounts should matter a bit more, either a larger bonus or really nice "Mount Specific" unit traits to buy

Reply #37 Top


There is something being overlooked that I just recently realized.. damage from elemental sources is not reduced by armor. Unless something is changed to the way armor works or reduction is gained based upon resistance, altering the weapon/armor damage is simply going to make building units with fire/frost amulets/rings and mage staffs the new method of decimating stacks.

Currently with a mage staff (12 fire or frost) (or an ingys bow - 8 pierce, 6 fire), fire and frost amulets and rings, damage per unit inflicted can more than triple base hitpoints.

Reply #38 Top

There are items that can reduce either cold or fire damage by 75%

Reply #39 Top

Just curious, are you guys using units with all +con bonuses? The extra hp lets them take a couple of hits until they need to be cycled out, which lets them gain xp and thus even more hp. Mid-late game I'll usually end up with a stack of 250+hp units.

Reply #40 Top

Hey, and Aura of Vitality too, especially with one or more life shards! =)  Just cast it on the last turn.  Gilden's leader starts with it too.

Reply #41 Top

Quoting ximxim, reply 39
Just curious, are you guys using units with all +con bonuses? The extra hp lets them take a couple of hits until they need to be cycled out, which lets them gain xp and thus even more hp. Mid-late game I'll usually end up with a stack of 250+hp units.
End of ximxim's quote

 

Except in extreme cases of con deficiency, I find it to be a waste. Bonuses are precious for both units and champions, and after a couple levels you'll have more HP than you know what to do with. Those slots are better spent elsewhere, unless you're dealing with a real gimp.

That could easily be changed, though.

Reply #42 Top

Quoting StevenAus, reply 40
Hey, and Aura of Vitality too, especially with one or more life shards!   Just cast it on the last turn.  Gilden's leader starts with it too.
End of StevenAus's quote

 

True, that's a very nice spell as well which works wonders for unit survivability.

Reply #43 Top

I think a logical solution is to increase the bonus we get from Constitution. This is the current hit points equation:

 

(( UnitStat_Constitution * level * 0.3) + 3) * troopcount  

 

Constitution at level one is divided by three. That means 10 Con gives 6 because the number is rounded. The problem is that adding or subtracting Con will not significantly change the value at level one. It also stays about the same even when adding 5-10 more Con to a unit. I think the equation should divide Constitution by 2, yielding a half point of hp per level. 

(( UnitStat_Constitution * level * 0.5) + 3) * troopcount  

Now a unit with 6 Con gets 6hp. A unit with 10 Con gets 8hp. A unit with 15 Con gets 11hp. The difference will actually matter in a fight. This will allow for Constitution to compensate for lack of armor and fix the glass issue.

At level 2 the change really starts to matter, preventing the zombie strategy from being viable against better units. Just for a scale, let's assume 10 Con for a unit that will make it to level 4. 

Level 1: 8hp

Level 2: 13hp

Level 3: 18hp

Level 4: 23hp

 

As you can see, leveling becomes very important, possibly allowing the devs to get rid of that nasty bonus to Accuracy on leveling. It also makes it possible for the player to increase Constitution instead of researching better armor types. This is a must for those Going down the Magic and Civilization Trees. It will also allow a unit with low strength to survive without being able to use good armor. 

The problem right now is that individual soldiers are not getting enough hp to survive the first attack. This solves that rather eloquently. 

Reply #44 Top

I don't think we need to improve the base levelling unit for regular units >.>

 

Instead I think we should increase the starting HP.

 

-> I think Champions having a higher HP increase is fine ... but for units I think the gradient is just fine. Albeit I'll admit I might think differently if experienced grunt units could be upgraded into end game units ;)

Reply #45 Top

Tasunke has the right of it here. Champions gaining more health per constitution point is fine. With levels rarely breaking 12, the benefits from high constition on heroes needs to be much higher.

On units it would quickly ramp into the rediculous. In fact the kingdom nation gains a significant leg up on the empire due to the aura of vitality, it would be bad for balance to improve on that even more. Higher base hp and less hp gained per level makes considerably more sense.

As far as the zombie strategy is concerned, reducing the damage on starter weapons would probably make choosing weak a poor option.

Reply #46 Top

Quoting Tasunke, reply 36
5) Plate should be the natural counter to all metal-based weapons. and by extension make non-metal weapons pretty worthless too.
End of Tasunke's quote

Blunt weapons too? I thought that those didn't need to "pierce/cut" the armour to actually do damage.

Reply #47 Top

Quoting Wintersong, reply 46
Higher base hp and less hp gained per level makes considerably more sense.
End of Wintersong's quote

This + rework/add armors, 3 is not enough

Reply #48 Top

Quoting CdrRogdan, reply 45
Tasunke has the right of it here. Champions gaining more health per constitution point is fine. With levels rarely breaking 12, the benefits from high constition on heroes needs to be much higher.

End of CdrRogdan's quote

 

This is the opposite direction I want to see, though. It was the way I initially thought too. "Well, everything is so slow now, those level ups need to be more potent".  But then I realized, I dont really like leveling so slow.  I want champions to level more quickly again, but have the potency of each level up reduced, fewer hp per level, abilities more carefully placed and balanced.

 

Let's face it, leveling up is fun.  Leveling less is less fun.

 

I am not having as much fun in .86, as I feel like I'm clawing after every scrap of XP for little gain. Loot items can't be used until the game is effectively over, and that's no fun. The constant flow of rewards, even small ones, is a powerful hook.  It's the force that drives the game, IMO. A slower stream of  more powerful rewards is not the way I want to see it go.

 

 

Reply #49 Top

Quoting Wintersong, reply 46

Blunt weapons too? I thought that those didn't need to "pierce/cut" the armour to actually do damage.
End of Wintersong's quote

Quite, blunt would be the "best" against plate ... but that doesnt mean they are going to get 1-hit kills.

Blunt would be the obvious choice (asides from my additional historical preference of axes defeating weak plate) for defeating high armor units ...

However Blunt would also have its drawbacks. -> Being a slower weapon, perhaps having a bit slower initiative and a bit less accuracy ... and if Melee weapons are going to add dodge, blunt would not add any dodge (while swords would).

 

A knight in full plate, whether with a mount or without ... is going to be hard to kill. (Unless you are using a magical weapon with magical damage/ armor ignore I suppose).

Blunt would be the best 'footsoldier' choice to fight plate.

Meanwhile swords would be the preference to fight high-dodge units with little armor. (Samurai vs Peasants)

 

In an overwhelming charge to try and disrupt an armored formation, Blunt is the best choice ... unless you are charging on horseback in which case you may want a lance.

 

The easy answer is that blunt will always have the one-up on armored units ... however in my opinion if  you want a high leveled unit to focus on dodge-based survivability (as opposed to armor/damage absorption), then swords are the better choice.

 

Armored Swordsmen beat leather Swordsmen.

Armored Macemen beat Armored swordsmen.

leather Swordsmen beat  Armored macemen

... at least in terms of cost effectiveness. (Dodge a lot, and land more hits, probably being equal in terms of combat effectiveness, but since the Armored macemen cost more, in a war of attrition the leather swords would win)

 

A lot of this is my opinion ... but the short answer is that YES Blunt weapons should have an advantage vs Plate when compared to other Weapon types :)

Reply #50 Top

Quoting Tasunke, reply 49


A knight in full plate, whether with a mount or without ... is going to be hard to kill. (Unless you are using a magical weapon with magical damage/ armor ignore I suppose).

Blunt would be the best 'footsoldier' choice to fight plate.

 

A lot of this is my opinion ... but the short answer is that YES Blunt weapons should have an advantage vs Plate when compared to other Weapon types
End of Tasunke's quote

 

A crossbow could penetrate plate at 200 yards. While spears are overpowered now, they did have penetration power against early armors. Where do piercing weapons fit into this?

 

The problem is (correct me if I'm wrong), the game understands different damage types, but there's no indication it can differentiate between armor types. It only sees that flat defense score. So all bonuses and penalties need to take place on the weapon user end, independent of the target it's attacking.

 

On reflection, I guess the way to do it is to give each item of armor various +resistance perks vs certain damage types, on top of its flat defense rating. +5% slashing resistance, etc.

 

I think armor penetration should be handled on a weapon by weapon basis, not on a damage type basis. Some weapons are difficult to quantify. Axes are both crushing and slashing, for instance. A wooden club and a staff are both blunt, but fairly useless against heavy plate.  They dont have the penetration ability of a war hammer, just be virtue of being blunt.  Many hammers and "blunt" weapons penetrated by having spikes that could punch through. So is that blunt or piercing damage?  Some swords are slashing weapons, some, like short swords, are piercing weapons. It's a matter of defining the qualities of individual weapons.