[Suggestion] Tech Tree tweaking

from Elemental Forums

I've noticed that the tech tree feels a bit off, especially as the game progresses.  Most games I feel like I have the same endgame tech, even if I try to specialize, so it doesn't feel as special as it might.

First off, decoupling the trees a bit.  I like being able to specialize my tech to a game situation, and I'm usually trying to unlock a tech to get a certain capability.  Right now it feels like, if in Gal Civ I wanted Phasors, I needed to get Galactic Stock Exchanges, Total Majesty, and Antimatter Powerplants and the full tree prerequisites for those as well.  I don't want to have to study alliances and bonding ceremony, education and such to get a fire weapon.  It also makes tech poor kingdoms a no starter, since you can't gun for a specific capability to fill in a hole.

Secondly, it would be nice if capabilities (especially for troops) were unlocked earlier -ie the full suite of armor types and weapons.  Fallen Enchantress seems to have a very interesting set of counters tactically - resistances, weapon damage types, etc.  But technologically it takes most of the game before you can play with that.  It makes the balance of armors feel linear: leather-> mail -> plate -> magical , rather than have the complexity that resistances and damage types imply.  Its probably why early spear troops feel so good to keep the entire game without bothering with other stuff.  Early on, their damage is fine to level, and later on piercing is the counter to the endgame heavy armors.

I'd like to be able to make a magical weapon early on to counter a magical beastie, if I can grab crystals (those ophidion drops might mean a bit more!).  Maybe it costs a ton, and isn't nearly as good as a normal sword against most things, but if I needed a counter, there it is.  Or rudimentary plate or mail or leather as early choices.  Just get that rocks/ paper / scissors in early rather than needing to complete 60-80% of the game techs to be able to build counter units.  Then have the later techs fill out those basic armors /weapons, making them better, cheaper, nicer.  Ultimately, making it feel a bit more like Gal Civ or other games where there are several lines of weapon/ defenses, rather than now how the tech layout is making things feel like a straight line progression.

Its not breaking the game for me, or making weep, but as I play a bit more I do realize that more and more games are feeling like the same thing techs and buildings and troops wise.  Which leads to a more bland feeling than I think the underlying mechanics should provide.

4,095 views 3 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

There are reasons for the links. It would be pretty silly if you could rush champion armors, however.. I see no reason that magical weapons/armor couldn't see a similar progression to the warefare techs, or use summoned units as pre-requesites for champion armor. Champion armor is pretty broken with 1stat/level, but that is another issue.

My biggest complaint is that the civics tree is nothing but a tech loop. Removing links and overhauling the tech tree do not seem to be routes that the developers plan on taking. I would be happy if civic diplomatic units had no limit and some variety of summoned units (or magic gear) were added to the magic tree.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

I think it is good to have resources that are only useful in the midgame, but crystal should have at least one thing you can build with it early. Magical equipment is well balanced right now for the most part (also the +1/levels need nerfing). If you want a special weapon for your heroes, you can find some in the goodie huts. Then go after that creature you want to kill. FE is not meant to be a rock/paper/scissors game. It is designed so that research gives you better weapons. Some are only better at countering certain combinations and some will be useful throughout the game. For instance, spear is a low level tech that can counter well armored units until the late game. Leather armor is ideal for basic troops, but if you can find a few iron mines, you can pump out some plate clad units. Those units can still be countered with a spear and some poison, but they will have a good advantage given that you have spent alot of time researching the necessary techs to have those units. Piercing will always have an advantage on other weapons against armor. But lightly armored units are best left to axes and maces.

I think this is a better system than GalCiv2's rock/paper/scissors because the defenses would still allow your ship to get blown away, even if you were countering correctly. Here we have tons of little differences that make each unit different, but potentially countered. I think one thing that would make this show through better is a greater penalty for being encumbered. It would give some incentive to keep using leather, so you can use better weapons. It would also be nice to have some new magical swords in the midgame that are the same as the Warfare Tree's but much lighter. That would be good balance to me. 

But your points about needing some changes are well received I think. There will definitely be some changes in the next two weeks. I would hope one of them is a better use for crystal. 

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Ya, I'm going for moderate changes rather than anything whole cloth, which isn't realistic (or needed IMO) anyways.  A bit of unlinking, a bit of front loading of equipment choice.  I hadn't considered champion (store buying) as much for the tech progression.  I'm not sure if that's more a store balance issue or a tech tree thing.

I guess I'm just not seeing the counters right now in actual gameplay -except with champs as brought up.  I can theoretically see how swords on mundane troops are better vs light/no armor, etc . .but in practice right now I can't build swords until midgame.  By then, units are moving out of light armor anyways and my spears are better.  For regular mundane troops I'm not thinking about counters, since I usually don't need one, and when I do, I can't develop one in a reasonable time frame since the tech has too many linked prerequisites.

It may be that my expectations are off.  Perhaps regular troops are meant to be meat, and then champions provide counters and special operations.  In that case, the mundane troops more linear feel makes sense.  They generically do something along a general theme.  I just would rather have them be a bit more interesting than that.

I'm sure that as AI progresses and balance changes occur it'll naturally get better to some extent.  I just would prefer a wider range of options up front to start making choices sooner.  ATM, things like 1 poison damage isn't really able to do much other than be cosmetic.  We'll see, as I said, not finding it horrible, just not  . .special right now.