DRM/STEAM and a Few Other Questions

hmm multiplayer is currently disabled but will be enabled in next patches

achievement will be add too when the game is released about he drm and steam i cant help you

but i think that the game wil not be realesed on steam

What Pantasd said, plus:

Multiplayer will be server-based, there will be Stardock severs, and the option for setting up your own servers.  Multi was available in previous betas in a limited capacity, but will be disabled until release (or Beta 4?, can't remember).

It will be released in retail stores, but a release on steam or any DD service other than impulse is extremely unlikely.

Impulse is not required to run the game, only to patch it.  Impulse::Reactor, which will be the multiplayer system, does not even require an impulse account, a twitter or facebook one will do.

There will be zero DRM.

Thanks fellas. Server based multiplayer hrmm that is interesting for a game like this. Do turns run simutaneously or in order? In Civ it really sucks when the guy with the better ping/viewpoint gets to move first or in MULE when the guy with the better ping gets the land or auction bid heh. I guess with the higher number of players the server client model is required. I just hope turns aren't done at the same time and if they are an option to toggle this would be great. I know nobody uses it in Civ on public games but private it works just fine.

I would guess that it would be togglable, but I'm not 100% sure.

I'm quite glad of the server-client model.  Peer-to-Peer always seems to end in connection issues or something.

It's going to use Impulse::Reactor for DRM/multiplayer/acheivements/etc. It's similar to Steamworks, but not invasive (which, IMO, that alone makes it infinetely better). As for the game being released on Steam or something else, never, ever, ever going to happen. See this thread: https://forums.elementalgame.com/383665

Turns are simultaneous, but I really don't see how lag factors in it. It doesn't matter if you move 1 second after the other guy if it's in the same turn. One the first player hits End Turn, a timer starts and the turn ends either when everyone clicks end turn, or the timer runs out.

Because depending on latency it will determine who moved there first. So if both players move at the same time the player with the lowest ping will get there. Assuming the server technology doesn't forcelag to even out connection quality in a game or something dynamic to prevent that from happening. In Civ this is further made worse with the camera viewpoint. It's not fixed and jumps to each unit and at times during the first critical moments of a turn you can lose your footing because you werent fast enough or your connection was slower. The moral of the story is I really hate turn based games with simutaneous turns for this exact reason. It leads to more problems in order to make the game move quicker. An option would be nice to do real turn based turns instead of the quasi simutaneous stuff that really isn't true turn based. Again I haven't played the game so this effect may be less pronounced in Elemental but I just want a really good turn based strategy game.

This happens in a remake Im playing right now of MULE. MULE is a realtime game but depending on positioning after each turn determines who gets land if someone pushes the button at the same time. So if two players hit the button at the same time the player in last place is supposed to get the plot. However due to latency issues this is not always the case. The same can be said of movement in Civ where two players move their unit to the same spot during the same turn. Who gets to move first?

So it's more or less a concern of mine in a turn based game offering multiplayer. Hopefully there will be an option to do traditional turns like in Civ. I know for multiplayer this is not the best option but usually I only play with a few friends and it's not an issue. However for 16 players god forbit it would be required so with that said I just hope their is a priorty system or something that doesn't cator always to the lowest ping when two people do the same thing. Of course it can be completely avoided with real turns instead of simutaneous.

i know from age of wonders that the server has no lag so he can move around etc first

but if you have a bad internet connection you will have to w8 before the command gets to the server then will your units move , in age of wonders server had a advantage

The server client interface to a dedicated server network definantly helps but it's not perfect. The host's only advantage would be how fast his connection is to the server. However if the server is local and still uses a server client interface his ping is 0. If he connects to Stardock to create a game on a network then his advantage is only as good as his/her ping but there is still room for error. Its ok using simutaneous in a co-op environment because usually your not competing with other players and its not a big deal. However for vs gameplay it's usually critical to ensure a level playing field.

Anyways Im ranting and that leads to more questions heh I'll stop now. Game looks cool I'm gonna buy it just not sure when. If I can hold out until release maybe I will try and hold out for some sales. Then again looking at Impulse I've never seen an item on sale or cheaper than STEAM or D2D so I might just have to bite the bullet and do something crazy like pre-order to get my fix.

Thanks for replies fellas.

It's not zero DRM. I mean after demigod's release, storing patches in Impulse is not zero DRM. Impulse Reactor is not zero DRM either. And forcing all multi-player games onto official servers where you can bet they verify accounts is not zero DRM either. Don't mistake non-invasive DRM with zero DRM.

Depends on your definition of DRM, but I suppose you're right...

Hey at least you can shut Impulse down and is not required to run in the background or so I hear. Ever since the Impulse launch I haven't touched Stardock. I used to LOVE Stardock central. It was my favorite lil app back in the day. I remember when I first loaded it I was in awe lol. Now its all this graphical junk that does nothing but slow my PC down and burn through memory like a fat kid eating a choculate cake.

I should probably get Impulse installed and ready for this game. However it's the main reason I didn't play Sins or Galciv again. Just didn't want the hassle. The only reason I even use STEAM is when there is no 3rd party DRM and when the game is so cheap you can't resists the hassle heh. Impulse is expensive more so than the other two. I fail to see how it can compete long term with the market but in this case I will have to make an exception for what looks like a quality game. Either way I'm sure Impulse will also serve as the only portal to Stardock games if anything. I just miss ye old Stardock Central. Constantly killing windows .net has become a hobby of mine.

The trend to shift everything into an account model is definantly in motion. It's kind of nice not having to input CDKEYS or worry about installation limitations. Just log into your account and it works. Not to mention the deals the etailers are giving out these days. Won't be long before console games go this route. It will also kill the resale market when the shift happens. Clearly that shift is in motion now with the bigger drives becoming standard.

MUST LOG OFF

She's definetly right, it is DRM. But IIRC, they aren't forcing all multi-player onto their servers. I don't think anything has changed since this was posted: https://forums.elementalgame.com/373543

I posted in that thread so I know about. There was a statement made that said all games had to connect to Stardock's servers, even custom servers. It was a little weird, and there was a discussion about it.

Oh here it is the line I was referring to:

32 player multiplayer. This is a big one and will take a lot of work but it we are requiring that the game handle up to 32 players playing together. To make this work, it also means that games need to be automatically saved (to our servers regardless of whether it’s on a custom modded server or ours) so that stopping and starting games later is easy.

Basically you HAVE to connect to connect to Stardock's servers to play mulipltayer games which means if you lose access to their servers, you lose access to the multiplayer portion of the game, another form of DRM.

You can host your own Elemental servers so... the only claim you have is that patches are being stored on Stardock's server.

This means you can play version 1.00 single-player without any problems. You would have to jump some hoops to update it. This is usually the case all games, which require each update to be re-cracked. And you certainly can't hit the "update" button and get it for other games either (nor Elemental).

You can play version 1.00 multiplayer if you play on private servers only.

There is nothing wrong with Stardock not supporting people who have purchased their game. That includes hosting the patch publicly (they still have to pay for the bandwidth a pirate would use to download it) or allowing pirates on their own server.

How Impulse fetches the updates and patches is not DRM. It's more akin to a DLM since I'm assuming the updates are encrypted somehow on Stardock's servers.

Also, it's 16-player MP now, not 32. Furthermore, unlike Ubisoft, you CAN save your saved games on your local machine. They just keep an additional copy on their machines for your convenience.

An custom servers, again. You do not have to connect to Stardock's servers to play and you can play multiplayer illegally on custom servers.

I guess I am very confused about how multiplayer will work I guess it would probably have to connect to the Impulse::Reactor servers to be able to make use of all that stuff.

DRM is also "Digital Rights Management", and encompasses methods that a company may take to protect their products and copyrights and prevent illicit usage.

Turning off servers isn't a form of DRM. It's part of the EULA. You are purchasing a license to play this game, not a product. When they turn off the servers, they are removing that part of the license.

Whoa whoa what? When did it get reduced to 16 players?

You need to take your medication of whatever it is you are missing. That is a quote directly from frogboy, not something I made up. This has nothing to do with illegal anything either. I am calling it DRM, and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it.

https://forums.elementalgame.com/373887

I think you've been dreaming man, because I don't remember any post saying multiplayer is going to be reduced to 16-player either.

I very much hope this is not the case.

The game supports 32 players but WE don't support 32 players on our servers.

Well that answers one question, but it raised another; why not? Why can't we have SD hosted 32 player games?

I got it from the instruction manual. It's in Beta 3's manual.

Thanks guys. Real nice of you for saying I need to take my meds.

It is not generally conssidered DRM to have an account and a password that you use to log on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management

Most people consider DRM to mean that the software or media is tied to the particular machine that it is run on, with some sort of recognition of the machine itself, so if you were to transfer it to another machine it would cease operation.

For example windows uses drm, since if you take an image of a windows volume and put it on another machine it will require reactivation. Same for a lot of the new games. They will only work for a particular machine if it is activated on that machine.

Im sure that you will be able to buy Elemental and run it on any machine, provided you have an impulse account. So in that sense it wont have DRM.