A new idea for Research and Technology

Technology and research in the strategy genre has become stale. Games today use the same system that they have used for years. A TBS like this would generally use something like the civilization system. You choose a research goal and then your people funnel all their creative energies into a nicely packeted 'technology' that then has an instant beneficial effect all across your empire. I'm sick of it, and I see many other peope are too. That system may be slightly realistic and somewhat interesting for a post industrial era society but it is completely out of place in a medieval setting. I say we scrap that system entirely and create a new one from scratch. Something much more organic and also something more intuitive that would require less micromanagement. Let's start off by borrowing a few prinicples from reality.

1. Ideas are nearly impossible to contain. Ideas like horseback riding cannot be kept from your neighbors. Once they see you riding horses and using them effectively in battle it is not going to take their sages long to come up with the idea also. Heck the footsoldier on the battlefield facing a calvaly charge probably came up with the idea in the first five minutes of seeing those horsemen. Also you see someone irrigating. How long do you really need to contemplate the concept before you put it into practice yourself a farmer would instantly see the value of it.

2. Revolutionary ideas like horseback riding or irrigation do not come from scientists. They come from bright people in field who see a problem and come up with a solution. I bet I know who came up with irrigation... I bet it was a farmer. There are things that could be done to encourage ideas. Things like education, experience, social values etc.

3. Education is more important. Just because your society knows about irrigation doesn't mean they can use it effectively if your people are all ignorant.

4. Implementation is more important than the idea and comes in stages not all at once. Ok. You saw them riding horses. Yes you can now go out find some horses and put riders on them. That doesn't mean your riders will be as effective as their riders. They may have had decades of horse breeding programs. Their riders may be trained from birth to know how to handle horses. They may have spent year perfecting methods of teaching their war mounts not to spook in battle. Their tacticians may have knowledge of the intricacies of formations that your people have never heard of. You both have cavalry but theirs are infinitely better.

 

So how can this really be applied to a game without making it ridiculously complicated? I think there are many ways of doing it but here's mine that may work and create something new and interesting.

 

Ideas are generate by your people automatically based on their education/knowledge/experience level (this would be a city level statistic and would be in several categories). This level can be increased by building educational buildings, spending money to support bards, teachers, and scholars,  and by having and using 'ideas'. The different levels would change depending on what most of the people in that city were doing. A city that focused almost exclusively on farming might develop good techniques associated with that but probably would never have an idea associated with architecture. Ideas then automatically spread to other cities in your empire and cities of neighboring empires depending on the spread rate of that idea and the education level of the cities (some ideas are extremely obvious once seen and others are more suble, also educated free thinking cities would pick up on an idea much faster than a backwater farming village). You could of course try to inhibit the spread of an idea to other empires or pay to have it spread across your empire. Also some ideas would only come from cities that had high knowledge levels in multiple fields making it beneficial to focus on having a few large cosmopolitan highly educated cities then a bunch of faceless towns.

Cities with high knowledge/education/experience in certain areas would be more effective in doing some things and couldn't be retooled easily. You can't just instantly turn a farming village into a mining village and expect it to perform effectively. In this way I think we would have a much more interesting research dynamic but also it would help to give cities character. Cities would in a sense be like RPG caracters with stats that could be leveled up.

 

Edit: I'd like to add to this also. There still would be 'research'. But it would only be done by your sovereign and maybe heroes and would be all about research into magical schools and also maybe more mundane 'secret knowledge' something like some mystical martial arts style, deciphering the language of the dragons, how to make napalm, or discovering how to use a pre cataclysm artifact. Things that would be possible to hide but would require dedicated scholarly research and experimentation to be effective. Although many of those might only be possibly to research if the proper idea had already been generated and your people knew of it.

Also this would take away from the 'technology is king' paradigm. Because you could not totally outstrip your neighbors in technology so that you were in a totally different era of technology. And also a peaceful research focused empire would not have superior military 'technology' to a organized military empire. I think it would really give character not only to cities but to empires.

13,378 views 24 replies
Reply #1 Top

3. Education is more important. Just because your society knows about irrigation doesn't mean they can use it effectively if your people are all ignorant.
End of quote

Great point. I've never heard of a TBS game with settlement improvements that distinguished between spreading practical knowledge and encouraging general research, but I'd sure like to play one.

Reply #2 Top

Quoting GW, reply 1

Great point. I've never heard of a TBS game with settlement improvements that distinguished between spreading practical knowledge and encouraging general research, but I'd sure like to play one.
End of GW's quote

 

Honestly I don't think for the technological levels descrided there really was much of any 'general research'.

Reply #3 Top

This is a very interesting, well, idea. But one thing I don't understand is how the specific ideas are supposed to be produced. Are they left up to the Big Roulette Wheel In The Sky? Do you get to pick the one you work towards like a conventional tech? Or do they appear naturally once you meet certain conditions?

Reply #4 Top

Quoting Sarudak, reply 2
... Honestly I don't think for the technological levels descrided there really was much of any 'general research'.
End of Sarudak's quote

I'm not sure what you mean. I didn't think about levels at all when I read your OP. I just really liked what I thought you meant by point three and how I'd like to see a game with different map improvements for encouraging research vs. encouraging teaching.

Reply #5 Top

The ideas will be produced randomly by people faced with a task that the idea could help them with. A farmer would come up with a farming idea. A soldier or general might come up with an idea for a kind of weapon (as might a blacksmith) or a new tactical idea. A hunter might have the idea of domestication. It is random but not entirely because the chance of an idea appearing depends greatly on the education, knowledge, and experience of the person who might have the idea. As well as environmental factors (like the idea of shaft mining is more likely to come to someone in a city near mountains) and social factors (a society that puts great emphasis on military prowess will have more military ideas). So although it's 'random' you can pretty much count on the fact that the agrarian culture will be the first to have the idea for irrigation and the nomadic one will be the first to think of domesticating horses. Also ideas will feed on other ideas you can't really imagine a sword without metal working so cities that are well developed will become centers of innovation compared to someone with many spread out settlements that are undeveloped.

Reply #6 Top

Quoting GW, reply 4

Quoting Sarudak, reply 2... Honestly I don't think for the technological levels descrided there really was much of any 'general research'.
I'm not sure what you mean. I didn't think about levels at all when I read your OP. I just really liked what I thought you meant by point three and how I'd like to see a game with different map improvements for encouraging research vs. encouraging teaching.
End of GW's quote

Sorry. What I meant was that in the setting it's based (medieval iron age) there wasn't really any such thing as 'technological research' like we think of today. The concept of separating the study toward the development of a trade from the trade itself would have been totally foreign to them. There weren't 'scientists' or 'researchers' there were artisans who did the work AND came up with innovations. That's why I don't like the idea of 'general research' being in the game at all. But maybe my idea of what you were saying was different from what you were thinking...

Reply #7 Top

Sarudak, you seem very focused on the "How does innovation happen" question. I love a good debate on that subject, but I think you might be 'missing' your own good insight. A TBS game can, and maybe should, distinguish between how quickly a culture can develop an idea and how quickly the culture can spread practical implementations of that idea.

Reply #8 Top

Yes of course! That is the central idea that I had. However if my idea has any hope of making it into the game I think I need to present it in a more concrete form of how it could be implemented in game terms...

Reply #9 Top

My problem with your idea is that it seems like a game unto itself. Technology is there to support certain strategies. Here it's running off with it like a bandit

Elemental is already doing a lot of new things with technology. I think the breakthrough system is quite good.

Reply #10 Top

The way I see it my system would be more of a background simulation than a game unto itself. The player would not necessarily have to pay much if any attention to the development of technology. Whereas it would be very important for him to focus on the development of his people educating them and shaping them to be most efficient for the goals that he would like them to pursue.

Reply #11 Top

The only way to a tech to be discovered/developed is to face a problem that needs a solution.

Problem: Need food to survive.

Solution: Hunt animals (and/or gather fruits).

Problem: How to hunt animals.

Solution: Develop tools and tactics according to animals.

Problem: Hunt of animals not too efficient.

Solution: Develop further the tools and tactics to hunt animals.

There is no random discovery of things (in a sense). Problem --> Solution --> Efficiency.

And just because you see someone riding a horse doesn't automatically mean you know how to do it. You get the idea that you could do that too but that doesn't give you taming skills, access to horses, breeding programs, horse keeping... So at best you would get some points in the tech, maybe just unlock it. But no real use of it per se until some "reseach" has been done first. That "research" can be acelerated by an instructor (and acelerated vene more with the proper "materials").

Once "unlocked" and some basic research done (that supposes at least access to the "materials"), you could start using the tech at a rudimentary level. From that point you can get better the more you use it, develop new techniques that allow for a greater efficency, and maybe even allow to do things that couldn't be done before like developing stirrups and their nice military applications.

For things like Democracy... Well, it's more of a social thing of those that do something more than just survive and to follow ancient taboos governed by the fear to the elements/gods. Or something.

Complex topic but nice.

Reply #12 Top

The Civilization series tried to do at least something along this road, the CivIV iteration was perhaps "best" in that respect (although I still was not enthralled by CivIV as most were), in that breakthroughs were reached by the fastest researchers (scientists), but the implementation of the inventions could have been hampered or enhanced by suboptimal / optimal "government" (e.g. windmills are great if your "society" is an "ecological" one, watermills or something odd seemed to be great under communism, while one of those civics didnt do very well with something else -- all somewhat random, but at least it was an implementation of one aspect of your idea.)

I could see this working for Elemental too, and I could imagine attempting to integrate it into a system of cross-technological breakthroughs (you get more boni / fewer penalties if you also researched this-and-that in path Civilization, for instance)....

Reply #13 Top

Yes of course! That is the central idea that I had. However if my idea has any hope of making it into the game I think I need to present it in a more concrete form of how it could be implemented in game terms...
End of quote

Seems like all we need are two lines of improvements, one for researchers and another for teachers. That would even help with the 'let us build towns with unique identities' thing--you could put all your researchers in Scholartown instead of a few in every town.

Reply #14 Top

The only way to a tech to be discovered/developed is to face a problem that needs a solution.
End of quote

Now that is interesting... researching answers to questions? Brilliant. You could even have select from different solutions. Hungry? Will you concentrate on hunting, agriculture or fishing?

Reply #15 Top

Quoting MagicwillNZ, reply 14

The only way to a tech to be discovered/developed is to face a problem that needs a solution.


Now that is interesting... researching answers to questions? Brilliant. You could even have select from different solutions. Hungry? Will you concentrate on hunting, agriculture or fishing?
End of MagicwillNZ's quote

Actually, at a very rudimentary begining, agriculture wouldn't be an option. Not until your gatherers (foragers?) have learnt enough about the fruits/vegetables they gather and their vital cycle. But yeah, that's more or less the idea.

Reply #16 Top

Now that is interesting... researching answers to questions? Brilliant. You could even have select from different solutions. Hungry? Will you concentrate on hunting, agriculture or fishing?
End of quote

Winter orginally said "problems" not "questions," and to me the distinction is important for generic TBS thinking. Problem-driven innovation is a very popular theme in modern economies, but our real intellectual history also includes many advances made by people working in 'pure research,' where they ask questions. Sorta scientists vs. engineers...

Actually, at a very rudimentary begining, agriculture wouldn't be an option. Not until your gatherers (foragers?) have learnt enough about the fruits/vegetables they gather and their vital cycle. But yeah, that's more or less the idea.
End of quote

For Elemental, we're still missing basic world-story details about just what the state of knowledge was before the Cataclysm, how much of it has been lost, and whether the game will make distinctions between re-inventing something and re-discovering it.

Reply #17 Top

Quoting GW, reply 16

but our real intellectual history also includes many advances made by people working in 'pure research,' where they ask questions.
End of GW's quote

That were made by people that had not to worry about to hunt or something like that. If you are starving you don't have time for 'pure reasearch'. Maxwell pyramid and all.

Both should be present but only cities with their needs covered can produce 'pure research' (reliably?).

Reply #18 Top

I really like the ideas of the OP and following discussion. I think I may have an idea that may address some of them although probably not to the extent that GW would like - maybe this BASIC idea is something that can be built upon?

My very basic idea is to leave the general research system as is, but give bonuses to research based on your population and what they are doing. For instance, if you are doing research in military, part of the equation would be how good you are at research, but another factor (possibly the bigger factor) should be how many military units you have trained. It only makes sense that someone who has focused on building up his military would inherently develop military techs faster (Like the OP said, it's likely farmers, not researchers that are going to come up with farming improvement ideas).

Similar bonuses in other techs could be based on how many smithies/farmers/other that you have. I realize this is not precisely what the OP had in mind, but it seems like a simple way to gain some of that "flavor" without completely scrapping the current system. Instead of "population" generating research, have the people in each field generate research in their applicable field. Thus it might even be possible to make a military breakthrough even if your RESEARCHER were not currently focused on military improvements...

Anyway, it's a thought - GREAT point(s) Sarudak and others that have posted!

Reply #19 Top

Quoting Denryu, reply 18

Similar bonuses in other techs could be based on how many smithies/farmers/other that you have. I realize this is not precisely what the OP had in mind, but it seems like a simple way to gain some of that "flavor" without completely scrapping the current system. Instead of "population" generating research, have the people in each field generate research in their applicable field. Thus it might even be possible to make a military breakthrough even if your RESEARCHER were not currently focused on military improvements...
End of Denryu's quote

I like this idea, but I'd broaden it somewhat. It seems to me there's too few, say, "agriculture" techs to really put in that sort of system on that specific a level. I'd say stick with the five main "branches", civilization, military, diplomacy, magic and adventuring and work from there. You could, for example, set the bonus depending on how many adventurers you have or something.

I foresee a problem. If you do this, it accelerates your field of focus. If you have a bunch of adventurers, it might make you research far faster than you perhaps should... maybe this "ambient" research only occurs for fields you aren't currently researching? Well, like anything, it'll require balancing.

Reply #20 Top

Quoting MagicwillNZ, reply 19



Quoting Denryu,
reply 18

Similar bonuses in other techs could be based on how many smithies/farmers/other that you have. I realize this is not precisely what the OP had in mind, but it seems like a simple way to gain some of that "flavor" without completely scrapping the current system. Instead of "population" generating research, have the people in each field generate research in their applicable field. Thus it might even be possible to make a military breakthrough even if your RESEARCHER were not currently focused on military improvements...



I like this idea, but I'd broaden it somewhat. It seems to me there's too few, say, "agriculture" techs to really put in that sort of system on that specific a level. I'd say stick with the five main "branches", civilization, military, diplomacy, magic and adventuring and work from there. You could, for example, set the bonus depending on how many adventurers you have or something.

I foresee a problem. If you do this, it accelerates your field of focus. If you have a bunch of adventurers, it might make you research far faster than you perhaps should... maybe this "ambient" research only occurs for fields you aren't currently researching? Well, like anything, it'll require balancing.
End of MagicwillNZ's quote

Yep a valid concern - it could really snowball out of control, you would get more and more advanced in areas that you were already strong in. I like the "ambient" research concept that you suggest. I also agree it should just apply to the main branches rather than specific techs, i.e. civilization based on total population, military based on number of military units, diplomacy based on (number of other factions you have made contact with?) magic based on shards in your posession(?) and adventuring based either on number of adventurers or number of quests completed or (?).

Honestly I would still like these modifiers to weigh heavily in the research calculation, but I also see your concern with that just pushing the leader in that field farther to the front. Hmmm. One thought using military as example. OK so the more military you have the more it gives a bonus to military research, So you advance further down that tree ahead of anyone else. However, you already have a huge military which is taking up your resources (upkeep) So it is harder for you to build new units with your newfound tech because you are already running lean economically to support your existing military. Of course you can just disband some obsolete units, so possibly one solution is to make that "retirement" process costly enough that it somewhat puts the brakes on? Maybe there are other ways to similarly "rein in" advancement to keep someone from just running away with things?

In fact, you could NOT base it on anything other than the branches of research, since with the breakthrough system, you do not even know exactly what you are researching until the breakthrough happens.

Reply #21 Top

I think this really loses out on the heart of my idea which is that development of infrastructure and education of your people is far more important that 'researching' new 'technologies'. I don't think I've ever seen a game that has done this but i believe if done right it could be very fun and refreshing.

Reply #22 Top

Very good ideas Sar.

Reply #23 Top

Wow what a good idea!  Reward the player for generations of expertise over that player who just stole and implemented it 5 minutes ago.  Maybe this should be handled through additional extra techs to research that are very difficult to acquire or untradable.  Kinda like horseback riding 1, horseback riding 2, horseback riding 3, ect.  You can get horseback riding 1 but not 12.  I'm a thinkin tech assimilation mechanic.

 

Reply #24 Top

Actually I'm not really a fan of the incremental technology. The idea of something could be a technology and is global. Implementation and expertise is something I see as being local. One city might have developed excellent horse-breeding programs and another legendary smiths. This will encourage city development over technology development and will give cities much more character I believe.