Research Trading -- Breakin the Law, Breakin the Law!

from Elemental Forums

In both Civ3 and Civ4, the ability to trade for techs was game breakingly powerful. A disciplined and experienced player could maintain a full cash economy focused entirely on military conquest while using threats, conquest, and tech brokering to stay at or near the top of the tech tree. 

This was bad, and resulted in Firaxis changing what techs could be traded for (from 3 to 4, removing the ability to exchange techs for cash over time and resources), adding a restriction mechanism to the AI (infamously known as WFYABTA, or We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced) that refuses to trade techs after various civ specific triggers are met, and even adding an optional disabling of tech trading with the No Tech Brokering option. 

But then Firaxis added the ability to steal techs via espionage, which made things even more trivial for a military focused civilization, as many of the standard military structures produced the very points needed to steal techs. So, dyurr. 

 

Elemental should not include an ability to trade for technology in the base game -- although it should remain available for modders. If it is included, brokering -- trading technologies received from another player to a third party for profit -- most certainly should not. Technology theft should categorically not be included unless the costs of doing so are greater than the cost of simply researching that tech -- if it is an option, it should be a less good option used when standard means are unavailable or insufficiently rapid. 

 

What should be included, however, is a catch up mechanism for a technologically backward civilization in the form of technology bleedback. Each time one civilization researches some advanced tech, it should reduce the cost of that tech for all following civilizations that it has contact with so as to reduce the likelihood of a research focused civilization breaking away from the rest of the pack to such a degree that other civilizations are incapable of catching up. In the Civ series, especially on larger earth style maps, isolated civilizations -- especially those under AI control -- tend to get behind early, and remain behind forever.  A bleedback system helps keep things under control.

 

To recap, the effects of tech trading and brokering should be carefully scrutinized before they are included. Magical or espionage related tech transmission should, if included, be more expensive than other, less dastardly mechanisms of acquiring technologies. Finally, backwards civilizations should receive benefits to research to keep them in the game.

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Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

What I'd like to see is passive tech diffusion instead of outright trading.

 

You trade with another civ, you can get their techs passively, and they can get yours.

 

 

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

What I'd like to see, actually, is Civ's who don't have the capability to manufacture or use certain techs, but still use the fruits of those techs. It'd be interesting to see if the giant epic empire was selling it's advanced weapons and all the dirt poor mud hut nations bought and used those weapons to fight amongst themselves even if they didn't have the means to manufacture them.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top


What should be included, however, is a catch up mechanism for a technologically backward civilization in the form of technology bleedback. Each time one civilization researches some advanced tech, it should reduce the cost of that tech for all following civilizations that it has contact with so as to reduce the likelihood of a research focused civilization breaking away from the rest of the pack to such a degree that other civilizations are incapable of catching up. In the Civ series, especially on larger earth style maps, isolated civilizations -- especially those under AI control -- tend to get behind early, and remain behind forever.  A bleedback system helps keep things under control.

 

To recap, the effects of tech trading and brokering should be carefully scrutinized before they are included. Magical or espionage related tech transmission should, if included, be more expensive than other, less dastardly mechanisms of acquiring technologies. Finally, backwards civilizations should receive benefits to research to keep them in the game.

 

No it shouldn't!  The faction that researched that tech had the TP (Technology Points) to do it. Other factions simply have to use their own TPs to research techs.

 

Backwards civs are inferior and will therefore be purged. Simple as that.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Campaigner, reply 3
Backwards civs are inferior and will therefore be purged. Simple as that.

Perhaps there could be some random ability for civs (say one in 5 or 10) that you know only after having established relations with it and that would make that civ "fast tech learning".

To make a historical parallel, while you are ahead in tech, you could keep your advance of those 'backwards' (like during colonization of America and Africa) but sometimes you would find an equivalent of Meiji-era Japan (from medieval tech to defeating Russia in 1905 in a few tens of years).

And then, you've got to make a decision: do I want to conquer it and I should make it fast, otherwise it shall soon be at my level by 'absorbing' my techs, or do I want it as ally and it will be powerful.

 

Decisions, options... That's what strategy games are about B)

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

I think Tech Trading was handled just fine in Gal Civ 2 and it's expansions. The option to trade techs if you want should never be dissabled totally as it diminishes the diplomatic game a great deal Imo. Diplomacy has a hard enough time as it is being fun, don't limit it.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

My thought on the subject, say that the ai has a morale tech that say gives a 10% bonus to morale. Now when I go to trade with them. Now I can't get the full 10% bonus after trading for it. You will only get a portion of the bonus say 1-7% but its more likely you will be on the the 1% side. That ai understand this tech the most. Yes they can explain to you but it doesnt always mean you will understand it all and use it as effectively as them(or they wont tell ya every detail ya need to know O:) .) So yes you can whore yourself with enemy tech but doesnt mean you will fully understand what ya got.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

It'd not be the first time one gets one tech traded and ends mastering it better than the original developers of it...

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

I pretty much agree wholesale with the original post. Tech trading as it stands in many games (GalCiv2 being very guilty there) is a game where the only way not to win is not to play.

The only game where I liked the "tech" trading system was AOW2, where it costed the giver as many mana point to give a spell than it would have costed to research it. So no free lunch there. But it was still usefull to trade since different players had different spells to research. The main example would be the healing spells, who were only available to 2 out of 6 magical elements. They were cheap to trade, but they were worth to trade.

 

With the current technological system (the breakthroughs) and randomized tech trees, a similar dynamic could be created in Elemental. My suggestion would be something like that : players can trade "blueprints" of techs. To give a blueprint, you need to have research the tech. Once you receive it, you don't get the full tech straigth away, you still need to use a breakthrough on it. BUT : if the tech was not in your tree, it is now in it; and as long as you have the prerequisites, the tech is always "green", so always available for selection. Thus no free lunch, but if you really need a particular tech, you can trade for it and chose it at the next breakthrough.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Goodmoring all,

I think whole sale tech trading is a little silly.  and full tech stealing is just a joke. 

Most of 'technology' is engerneering,  having the right tools, to build the better tools, to build the tools you need to use the tech.   Even if you steal the blueprints for something it'll still have 'use a XYZ here and a FDG here, and you can replace TES with GDWC if you don't have one'... 

I think tech trading/stealing should be more; if you are tradeing for or stealing a tech, you must have that tech at at least the Red level avalible for you to research it. then while you are stealing/trading for it you get + to RP / turn, and increased change of getting that tech.  (so red becomes yellow or even green [stealing / trading] but because you are stealing that tech you have low changes of getting other techs from that list [greens become yellow or even red, and yellows become red or are removed from the list]).

That way you can't run off a 100% steal / buy tech paradyme,  You need to have native RP's in order to benifit from stealing / trading.  Least that's how i would handle the problem


Robbie Price

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Disbalance in civilization should not keep Elemental from tech/spell trading. So the key motivation is wrong in original post.

I think tech trading should be present in some regular (not periodic as blueprints) way, otherwise all diplomacy will be less important and fun. Also I see no problem in not researching anything but just buying it from others. It is just another style of play.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Techs should be split into two classes. One for military/magic techs that are kept close gaurded and can be traded for. The second class for things like banking that diffuse to trade partners/neighbors over time.

If you are trading with someone, thier merchants are likley to get a look at your advanced banking practices and copy them. However, the secret to making super pwn potions are going to be hidden and gaurded and getting too close to the manufacture building gets you a death sentence.

The catch though, is that the banking practices can't be traded. After all, its pretty hard for one soverign to explain to another how the bank systems works and kinda pointless since its the bankers who have to figure it out. Although i do think you should be able to uplift a weaker civ where you perform a special 'uplift' diplomacy thing and basic tech starts diffusing to them much faster. Could be useful if there are massive hordes of monsters on the weaker civs other border and you want a buffer. There should also be obvious limits. A civ that is having trouble figuring out the whole "cooked food" thing shouldn't be picking up advanced farming techs.

The military/magic tech though, since its hidden and gaurded and dosen't diffuse can be traded outright. After all, its pretty easy to give someone the recipie for your super pwn potions.

This seems like the best split to me. Even if the agressive militray nation demands your pwn potion recipie, it won't do them a lot of good since they can't grow the crunchy chick main ingredients until they get that farming tech, and farming tech is diffuse only. This keeps the military empires from just stealing all your tech and lets you trade with those who are also teching. TBH, it has neve made sence to me that a farmer would not just take a peek over the border fence to figure out how his neigbor on the other side gets his chicks so crunchy.

 

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Ephafn had a very good suggestion, where trading is still possible and profitable without being unblanaced.

I had another suggestion of my own, but it doesn't hold a candle to his.

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

The only reason tech trading can be unbalanced is poor AI. I don't see a balance problem - just don't sell critical techs thats all.