Some problems with AI diplomacy.

from Sins Forums
I've been playing a number of skirmish games against the AI.  The random maps are interesting, but I'm hitting a recurring problem with the AI players and Diplomacy.  (Aside from the usual selection of impossible missions, like attacking someone on the far side of the galaxy, or destroying 10 tactical structures at a point when all the players together probably don't *have* that many.)  The problem is, that the AI players all seem to end up in a cease fire/alliance with each other.  It takes a bit longer if there are more players, but if I'm playing against two AIs, they'll always end up at a point where they don't shoot each other.  Since there is no spying or sabotage option, there's nothing I can do to break up this alliance.  Against two AIs, this is annoying.  Against eight AIs, it means that I automatically lose.  (I am *not* a tournament-quality player, and I don't have the "mad skillz" to hold off what amounts to a fleet that outnumbers me at least four to one.)  I realize that I can lock the teams, but I like there to be a little uncertainty.  Also, on the random maps, if I lock the teams, my allies have a suspicious tendancy to end up on the far side of the galaxy, surrounded by the enemy, and are promptly wiped out.

As far as the Diplomacy in general, it would be nice if it wasn't quit so one-way.  One of the things that's pretty standard in turn-based 4x games, and even some RTS games, it the ability to directly give resources, ships, and even planets to an ally, and/or the option to bargain with them for those items.  ("So, Mr. Bond, now you need my help.  I'll give you a small fleet of assault cruisers in exchange for 10 bazillion credits and that asteroid mining base on the edge of my territory.")  It would also be helpful if there was some way to offer missions directly to an AI or another human player.
19,094 views 17 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
Katoran, the game is designed so that the player that is the most powerful becomes the target of attention of the AI's, causing them to ally with each other early. Because (I suspect) Sins is coded so that every player MUST HAVE at least one enemy at all times, Sins is satisfied in a 1v1v1v1 unlocked game that the human player is that enemy, so its factions will end up ganging up by default if the human player doesn't establish a ceasefire with one of them.

The whole thing is solved by getting allies. Skilled/experienced players can micromanage and survive pretty far into the game without one, but a normal or learning player on a large map must seek allies early to survive when their territory starts really encroaching on enemy territories... and because missions are random and you'll eventually be given a mission by an ally that is relatively impossible to do (e.g. take out 4 civ structures past a chokepoint where three enemy AI's are hanging out), you should try and satisfy as many missions as possible that don't break existing ceasefires.

On larger maps, try solving as many of the initial diplomacy requests as economically possible, and request ceasefires as soon as your favour reaches 50% with any ally. The game is not impossible in a 10-player free-for-all furball.

-- Retro
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
I get more or less the same thing and it is really causing problems.

In a 6 - 8 skirmish I may enter into an alliance with one or two other factions. Then, when I am getting massively hit by the AI's factions (this may involve 2 - 4 factions) I will get my allies to defend my planet, but low and behold, my ally is in a truce with ALL OF THE AI FACTIONS that are attacking me!!

Essentially, all of the AI factions have a truce, so my allies are useless in helping me defend. I just quit a game because I was being overrun by the enemy AI faction (3 combined factions on hard) and my allies main fleet just sat in the same system that they were destroying, then proceeded to follow the enemy through my systems watching them destroy my worlds, and I had 100% happiness with that ally!

This is seriously making the game unplayable with out setting teams.

Any way this might be fixed???
Curtains - Customize Windows with additional styles
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
Katoran, the game is designed so that the player that is the most powerful becomes the target of attention of the AI's, causing them to ally with each other early. Because (I suspect) Sins is coded so that every player MUST HAVE at least one enemy at all times, Sins is satisfied in a 1v1v1v1 unlocked game that the human player is that enemy, so its factions will end up ganging up by default if the human player doesn't establish a ceasefire with one of them.The whole thing is solved by getting allies. Skilled/experienced players can micromanage and survive pretty far into the game without one, but a normal or learning player on a large map must seek allies early to survive when their territory starts really encroaching on enemy territories... and because missions are random and you'll eventually be given a mission by an ally that is relatively impossible to do (e.g. take out 4 civ structures past a chokepoint where three enemy AI's are hanging out), you should try and satisfy as many missions as possible that don't break existing ceasefires. On larger maps, try solving as many of the initial diplomacy requests as economically possible, and request ceasefires as soon as your favour reaches 50% with any ally. The game is not impossible in a 10-player free-for-all furball.-- Retro
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Your reply was posted while I was typing, but getting allies can almost make things worse (see my post above)!!
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
I forgot to mention it, but what pbdr describes is my problem exactly - *ALL* the AI players tend towards a mutual cease fire, whether they are my ally or not. The other problem is that they seem to have a random "backstab" chance. I've had an AI ally, with 90% friendship, suddenly declare that being my ally no longer served it's needs. Of course, it did this as it's massive fleet was sitting in orbit around one of my colonies watching another AI trash the place.

As is, the built in diplomacy engine is essentially broken. Which is a shame, since otherwise this in an excellent game. It's not a huge deal, since there are ways around it, but it is a little frustrating.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
Hi!
*ALL* the AI players tend towards a mutual cease fire, whether they are my ally or not...
As is, the built in diplomacy engine is essentially broken.
End of quote

Signed.

It's really frustrating to see my "ally" who helped me two minutes ago now just watching other faction attacking the same planet he defended two minutes ago. :(

And very soon he'll also turn hostile, because I can't go out and destroy 3 civilian structures of XXX 3 jumps away, because I have to fend off 3 (and the 4th just joined the fray) AIs constantly attacking 2 of my planets 4 jumps apart.

Sigh! :( Please fix the diplomacy. As it is now, it simply isn't fair.

BR, Iztok
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
After probably two or three hundred hours of play so far, I'm inclined to agree with the complaints I've read here, and was considering making a post about it myself.

Usually what I do in these situations (although it's really only possible in smaller games) is sign cease fires/treaties with everyone except my target, and then slowly I'll turn on my allies one by one as I run out of hostiles to kill. Unfortunately, in larger games this usually doesn't work (and even in the smaller ones you often find yourself restricted to the "give me stuff" missions since the AI invariably asks you to attack your strongest, closest ally) so locked teams is more or less a necessity which is a pity because an 8-man FFA has some wonderful potential for diplomatic chaos.

I agree that the diplomacy in this game is generally broken, but I'm probably handicapping myself more than I realize when playing against Unfair AI's. I don't particularly find "Hard" to be that challenging, but in games where every faction has a cease fire with every other faction (except me, of course) I all too often find myself defending a single colony or a pair of colonies from constant attacks, one right after the other, always with enormous fleets in the midgame. The last game I played against Unfair AI's saw two of them banging their head against one of my colonies (A Volcanic planet that I named "Maldis"--$1 to anyone who can spot the reference without using google) for about two or three hours and then eventually they both gave me easy missions and I wrangled a cease fire out of them. The game changed completely when I got these cease-fires: it enabled me to clear my left flank, eliminate a player, and establish a position of more or less complete dominance. That's all well and good I guess, but this is a game that strikes me as predominantly military based; Diplomacy need not be my only option for a chance at victory.

The problem I've been having with the Diplomacy in this game is that it essentially makes it so you ever only play one kind of game--there isn't much breathing room in terms of diplomatic meta-strategy. If you don't complete every mission you possibly can, you find yourself on the business end of what appear to be coordinated strikes by rival factions who are now and always at peace. They don't seem to hit at the same time; rather one faction will send in a 50+ ship fleet while another waits one jump away, presumably to swoop in and steal he colony. If you manage to fend off the first attack--guess what? Another one's already on its way.

So yeah, I'm about as sick as anywone else is about the ganging up, which I was under the impression had been fixed in a previous patch. Perhaps they're not intending to go after me at first (and they usually don't) but somewhere between early and late midgame they all seem to end up with cease fires, leaving me the only one at war with (usually) multiple factions. It's getting pretty tiresome.
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
(A Volcanic planet that I named "Maldis"--$1 to anyone who can spot the reference without using google)
End of quote


Can I use the public library?  ;) 
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
What surprises me is how the computer players remain at peace when they should presumably be getting kill missions at some point. The computer players obviously never fulfill these kill missions, so shouldn't the alliances eventually break?
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
Currently I'm playing my first game with unlocked teams. There are 10 players, everybody has his own solar system, so defending is a bit easier. There were definitely cases where I felt the AI was ganging up on me, but I've managed to keep at least one as an ally at all times. Though my initial ally got clobbered by the others. I try to get trade treaties with as many as I can, then I use the cash to place bounties on the others heads to keep them fighting each other. Although at some point a bunch of Al's decided they needed revenge and I ended up with about 5000 credits on my head, which resulted in me having to deal with a lot of attacks :D .

I do wonder how Al's manage diplomacy between themselves though.
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
Hi!
What surprises me is how the computer players remain at peace when they should presumably be getting kill missions at some point.
End of quote

When I checked the missions statistics I was the only one who got them. So no negative/positive effects for AIs from (non)completing them.

I do wonder how Al's manage diplomacy between themselves though.
End of quote

I wonder too. If they do it at all, not just some random roll for peace/war.

BR, Iztok
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
Yeah, I'm not sure how it works either, and I've never seen an AI alliance deteriorate. Ever. Not once. God knows they'll dump my ass in a heatbeat, but god forbid the AI's should ever fight each other past the midgame.

I have played a couple (key words: "A couple") of games where AI factions failed to estabish a Cease Fire/Peace Teaty, but I've also noticed that once signed, they never seem to break. It's possible that these things are happening but I'm not noticing them--I'd have to check my replays to be sure but it's not something I've ever noticed while actually playing.

@ unca_alby: sure, you can but I'm not sure how much that'll help ;p
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
I have the same problem. Thank god it's not just cuz I suck. I've been trying 40-102 maps with 7-9 other AI all on hard and unlocked teams. The most success I've had recently is by starting with 4 allies in a 5v5 unlocked. So far no one has switched because some of my guys are getting hammered by other teams. I don't pitch in which forces the other AI's to come in and attack keeping animosity between AI's high. I'm focusing on light blue while I ignore the others.

It's kind of a shame to have to play this way. I'm considering quitting this game and doing a 2v2v2v2v2 locked. I imagine that will be fun but it'd be nice if the full extent of diplomacy in the game could be explored in an upcoming patch.

Also: I saved and then sent about 10k creds worth of $, Metal, Crystal as a donation to a guy wanting me to take out someone smaller than him. I didn't go up one single % in friendliness. I tried spreading it out over time. Although they thank you verbally it seems to have no affect on your relations...another thing I found kind of disturbing.
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
There is a way to "have you cake and eat it too" allie wise :) .It's hinted in the manual.

Get a cease fire with X then when Y asked you to destroy X's structures move a fleet to X's gravity will with the structures. You friends so he won't touch you. Then break the cease fire destroy the structurtues and ask for a cease fire again. You will get is since your disposition with X will have not dropped or dropped just a few %! So now your allies with X anf Y.

The manual did state on page 31 "Cease Fire – ..... but either may decide to do so with no explicit ramifications." ie, not much if any lose in dispositon with them.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
I've had an AI ally, with 90% friendship, suddenly declare that being my ally no longer served it's needs. Of course, it did this as it's massive fleet was sitting in orbit around one of my colonies watching another AI trash the place.
End of quote


Thats because they were doing what was best for them. They wanted to be on the winning side. Don't tell me you never see that in human history.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
allies are also pretty dumb or just not cooperative. When I asked them to attack an AI with whom they had no allegiance, they said "Gotcha" then one second later "I've finished your task"... wtf!?!?! They didn't even move!
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
namekino - That would be fine, if the AI also betrayed *EACH OTHER.* They don't. Ever. Once two AI players reach Cease Fire, they're friends for life. And without spies, sabotage, threats, extortion, bribery, or any of the other diplomatic options that are standard in a game like Galactic Civilizations 2, there is no way to break up whatever unholy alliances the AI makes. In most cases, the only advantage of an AI ally is that they aren't shooting at you. For the moment. Until they randomly betray you for no apparent reason. They can't help defend you, because they won't shoot at anybody. There isn't even a setting for launching a propaganda war at them - you can't even control who is affected by your Culture stream.
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
They are trying to kill you because you know what to do and they don't so they have a big grudge. They also don't like your faction.