Shield Mitigation Subsidizes and Promotes Focus Firing

I don't know what the idea with shield mitigation is, but its current effect is not to limit the benefits of focus firing, but to insure that focus firing is the most viable solution in most cases.

Hypothesis: Shield mitigation mechanics reward focus firing in most scenarios.

I think we all know why focus firing, on its own, makes better tactical sense than ship-vs.-ship one on one firing: Reduce the DPS of the opponent faster to tilt the scales of the battle as soon as possible.

Examples:

10 LRM vs. 10 LRM:

If both sides spread fire evenly, one side will win, barely, depending on who got the first shots off, etc.. Each ship whittles down its opposite # till death, then helps out another if there's time, which in this case there won't be. If one side focus fires, they'll take down 1 LRM at a time, and weaken the opposing force significantly before any of their number are threatened. If they also retreat weakened ships they'll improve the numbers even more. EG, if LRMs still targeted, with enough health left to jump out, jump out, the rest of the mob can continue working on the survivers of the spread-focus fleet who will have to retarget significantly healthier ships in what is clearly a suicide by stupidity.

Enter Shield Mitigation.

So, shield mitigation means that as more damage is poured into a target, less of that damage 'gets through'. Significantly, all damage triggers some shield mitigation, and shield mitigation has a 'cap'. There is a certain point beyond which adding damage just helps kill off the maxed-out mitigating target.

If you spread-focus fire, you trigger mitigation on all the target ships to some degree. There is DPS loss for all attackers. If, instead, you focus-fire, there is DPS loss to a ceratin point, but any attacker adding DPS above the mitigation saturation point is doing non-mitigation-increasing damage. Sure, its only 43% or so of 'full damage', but you are still tipping the scales of the overall battle by removing their DPS (by removing ships, eh.).

It would take a very highly curved shield mitigation mechanic to offset the rewards of focus firing.

Focus Firing:

Only one ship's hull repair, shield regen dealt with.
Lower enemy fleet DPS in the only way possible: by removing ships.
Actually have and use target prioritization, rather than let some 'balancing' mechanic dictate targets.
Least amount of shield mitigation triggered: In all but tiny engagements of 3 or 4 ships, focus firing will trigger the least amount of overall damage reduction because the battle will be shorter and will speed up as it becomes unbalanced in favor of the superior focus-fire team.

Spread Firing:

Looks cool.
Gets you killed.
Triggers the self-repair of the maximum # of targets.
Puts a pail of DPS in the deepest well of shield mitigation: The whole enemy fleet.

......

If Shield Mitigation is linear, it certainly promotes focus firing. Even if its curved, it likely promotes focus firing more often than not.

If it is linear: Each DPS added to a target adds X percent of mitigation increase. I think it works this way now.

If it is curved: Initial DPS add very little to mitigation. The larger the DPS, the faster the increase in mitigation. Ideally, to convince people not to focus fire, mitigation should be Zero with the average DPS load: One average ship shooting at you does nothing. Two average ships should do only ~1.5x damage (25% mitigation). Three, 1.7x (40%). Four, 2.0x (50%). Five, 2.2x, etc.. So that the point of limited returns is reached quickly and decisively. Most importantly though, the initial load should have no mitigation at all. Otherwise you are clearly rewarding people to pour damage into already-maxed out targets.

A linear arrangement cannot inhibit focus firing, and because it starts non-zero and has a cap/saturation point, is often a clear incentive to focus fire whenever possible. It isn't a disincentive because no matter where you put your DPS, in a linear system you will get a mitigation effect, so it might as well be into a focus-fire target. Since this starts at 15%! it is even more clear that spreading fire is nonsensical.

......

What I don't like about mitigation (besides being an incentive to focus fire (who needs an incentive?)) is that it seems like managed economics, like a forced disincentive against being tactically astute. Why? Would you design a football game that likewise 'encouraged' only single tackles? It just rubs against the whole mechanic of combat. Its also counter-intuitive. You'd think a ship would be able to 'mitigate' against a light load better than against a heavy load / multiple source. Maybe single ships shouldn't even be able to damage each other? Rather than add a counter-intuitive managed dis-incentive bandaid to the 'problem' (why is it a problem again?) of focus firing, why not add positive incentives to multiple attack formats?

Maybe AoE effects that don't stack, so ships are encouraged to spread out (like crusader, but unstackable). Or more ship-vs-ship benefits, like an ability to mini-animosity a multi-turret ship: focus the flak's shots on you, rather than your fighters. Or shots that take a long time to execute, but do hella damage. Somewhat like the assailant's range ability. These things create positive incentives to diversify away from simple blob focus-firing. Shield Mitigation doesn't. And even if it were curved to be effective, this would be a bad thing. How would you micromanage 50 ships anyways? The interface has to be there, or the AI, and the incentive has to be there. Taking away advantages without incentives, mechanics, and a spread-fire interface to occur to players as alternate strategies makes mitigation seem like a cheap shot. I'm glad it doesn't really work as it looks on the tin.


20,708 views 41 replies
Reply #1 Top
Unless that amount of FF damage you're dealing to one ship overkills it (and thus results in a loss of dps for the wasted shots) FF is always good.

FF = less units shooting back at you.

I'm quite certain that shield mitigation was NOT put into the game to thwart focus firing. Instead, I'm pretty sure it's there so that a user can react when a ship gets injured and pull it out or activate a heal on it. This is so that the general pace of combat isn't too slow, but simultaneously units don't suddenly pop (or at least, not as quickly as a game without shield mitigation) when under FF.
Reply #2 Top
That would make sense Jinx. It does give you a moment or two extra to pull the wounded ship or manually heal it.
Reply #3 Top
Brace for impending argument...
Reply #4 Top
Instead, I'm pretty sure it's there so that a user can react when a ship gets injured and pull it out or activate a heal on it. This is so that the general pace of combat isn't too slow, but simultaneously units don't suddenly pop (or at least, not as quickly as a game without shield mitigation) when under FF.
End of quote
I'm pretty certain this is pretty much the true intent of shield mitigation, by creating a "curve" to hitpoint-death rather than straight incineration. What PURPOSE this really serves is somewhat more suspect.

As for spread fire "looking cool", I dispute this argument. Firstly, it's subjective: There's no evidence to suggest that it ACTUALLY looks cool. I, for one, am more impressed by the concentration of a massive amount of firepower on a single hapless target. It makes me chuckle and think, "Sucks to be you, dude.". Wild spread-firing, on the other hand, impresses on me a sense of distaste and poor fire discipline. It does not "look cool", it looks like a disorganized mob of untrained rabble.
Reply #5 Top
The OP is correct to some extent, at a certain fleet size shield mitigation does make focus firing actually even more effective than it is normally is in other games.
this was first mentioned like a week ago in one of the shield mitigation 60+ post threads with actual scaling numbers, decay and stuff like that.



Reply #6 Top
Yeah, read that thread. But I don't think anyone went so far as to suggest that mitigation subsidizes focus fire. The poster in that thread who kept mentioning shield and hull repair was right, though neither of us have provided the mathematics. Do we need to? I don't think focus fire is debatable. But I do think that shield mitigation's effect on focus fire is more questionable (and mathematically interesting). Actually laying out a full fledged example with real numbers would be useful, but isn't my interest, unless I'm wrong of course.
Reply #7 Top
maybe the point isn't to discourage focus firing. maybe the point is to increase the survivability of ships on a curve related to the amount of damage they are currently sustaining. this would make the in-combat regeneration of shields and armor much more important (as opposed to just having a higher starting health value) and would prevent scenarios in which a very large fleet can one shot a ship with its focused fire. the deliberately slowed pacing enables factors such as movement, range, special abilities, and all other factors that play out over time to become relevant again.

shield mitigation is NOT a mechanic to discourage focus firing. it is mechanic to enable tactical management as a relevant factor in battle by slowing damage dealing at a rate related to the amount of damage being dealt. if the shield mitigation didn't exist the game would be very heavily pushed in the direction of undirected, zerg-like strategic combat where your best plan would be to focus only on macro-management and direct ships to a battlefield while zoomed all the way out. the mechanic as implemented in the game is very successful at extending the lives of ships under attack long enough for tactical management to become relevant.
Reply #8 Top
it is mechanic to enable tactical management as a relevant factor in battle by slowing damage dealing at a rate related to the amount of damage being dealt.
End of quote


The thing about that though, is that when there's only a few ships, it's not needed, because ships last a long time anyway, and then when there's a lot of ships, it's irrelevant, because ships die in a matter of seconds, anyway.

Plus, I thought it was supposed to discourage microing, not encourage it.
Reply #9 Top
why would you assume that the developers want to discourage micro-management of a battle? isn't that an opportunity for skill and interaction? if anything i would assume they would want to go out of their way to increase the importance of micro-management, and thus implemented a shield mitigation mechanic that increases survivability in large engagements.

i mean, lets get real here. lets analyze the mechanic in terms of the effect it actually has on the game and not on the effect that you expected it would have.
Reply #10 Top
As for spread fire "looking cool", I dispute this argument. Firstly, it's subjective: There's no evidence to suggest that it ACTUALLY looks cool. I, for one, am more impressed by the concentration of a massive amount of firepower on a single hapless target. It makes me chuckle and think, "Sucks to be you, dude.". Wild spread-firing, on the other hand, impresses on me a sense of distaste and poor fire discipline. It does not "look cool", it looks like a disorganized mob of untrained rabble.
End of quote


I whole heatedly agree. Focus firing looks much, much cooler. And spread out firing looks like untrained rabble.
Reply #11 Top
Instead, I'm pretty sure it's there so that a user can react when a ship gets injured and pull it out or activate a heal on it.
End of quote

If that was really the case, shouldn't the mitigation fall off after about 10 seconds? Kind of like, the shields start taking huge damage, so the power core warps up it's output to 150% or something to compensate, wouldn't it then overload and be forced back to normal operation?

Reply #12 Top
why would you assume that the developers want to discourage micro-management of a battle?
End of quote




Craig Fraser: Low Micromanagement

Auto-attack – any unit that can attack and also auto-attack with the click of a button. The unit AI picks targets intelligently based on the ships role, so you don’t need to worry about micromanaging every single ship the whole game.

Fleets – grab units, click the fleet button and just command the fleet leader. You don’t have to worry about everyone; they’ll stay together AND perform their duties intelligently in the process.
End of quote


Just that.
Reply #13 Top
heres their opinion about micromanagement, well at least stardocks opinion.

just after 3:30
http://www.gamespot.com/video/935993/6182903/sins-of-a-solar-empire-official-movie-1

these are actually the best pre-release movies for information that I remember seeing, Im surprised they didnt get a lot more views..etc compared to other movies (some released after).

took me time to find this (kept checking youtube vids for this one).
anyway after watching it again (watched it when it was first released) some of the things are quite amusing :).

Reply #14 Top
Instead, I'm pretty sure it's there so that a user can react when a ship gets injured and pull it out or activate a heal on it.If that was really the case, shouldn't the mitigation fall off after about 10 seconds? Kind of like, the shields start taking huge damage, so the power core warps up it's output to 150% or something to compensate, wouldn't it then overload and be forced back to normal operation?
End of quote


I don't think so... I think shield mitigation exists to facilitate easier micro so you don't need to have 480 apm to play this game.

While ships do "intelligently" choose their targets based on which ones are weakest, it's not necessarily the best strat. There's times where you want to take down that cap ship, no matter what happens to your fleet, and times where you want to kill certain units even if they're not weak to your units. For any RTS, you're never going to get away from using micro. This game tries to minimize the amount needed, but you're fooling yourself if you think you can win against a microer while not microing yourself (assuming you're using the same strategies and fleet composition)
Reply #15 Top
Archpsi -- Not just stardock, he's the product manager for sins (though I have no idea what that encompasses).
Reply #16 Top
I fully understand the concept of FF and reducing the number of enemy ships regenerating shields and hull, reducing the enemy DPS, and all of the various benefits of Focus Firing on one target at a time.

But how about this. You have 5-10 squadrons of fighters flying around. Your fleet is Focused on an enemy Capital Ship. With fighters doing 25% damage to Caps and 200% or whatever to light armored targets, would you be better off having these units not FF'd on the Cap and instead attacking something else. Fighters are one of the units on the extreme end of the strengths vs. weaknesses chart and they might be better off Focusing on their own Target. To continue the example:

Your fleet plus fighters are focused on an enemy capital ship with the fighters doing 25% of their damage. The Capital ship is destroyed in lets say 90 seconds and your fleet switches targets to a LRM and kills it in 5 seconds for a total of 95 seconds for the 2 units killed.

Now in the other scenario, your fleet, is on the Cap, but your fighters are on the LRM. It takes your fleet 93 seconds to kill the enemy Capital ship (since the fighters only do 25% damage to Caps, their contribution to the kill was minimal). However, in the 93 seconds your fleet took to kill the Cap, your fighters, doing 200% to light armored targets, killed the LRM in 80 seconds and started shooting at another LRM for a grand total of 93 seconds, gaining you 2 seconds and a little extra damage on a second LRM.

Obviously, I made the numbers up to illustrate a point, but it would be easily testable, and I think I might just do so next time I play. There MAY be certain cases where you have ships that are highly specialized that you may be better off not Focusing your entire fleet on the same target. Its possible that this idea is totally hairbrained since I haven't crunched the numbers in game, but it wouldn't surprise me if this was the case.
Reply #17 Top
Instead, I'm pretty sure it's there so that a user can react when a ship gets injured and pull it out or activate a heal on it.If that was really the case, shouldn't the mitigation fall off after about 10 seconds? Kind of like, the shields start taking huge damage, so the power core warps up it's output to 150% or something to compensate, wouldn't it then overload and be forced back to normal operation?
End of quote


You ever watch some of those Star Trek shows, whenever the ship comes under fire, the commander of the ship says "Divert all power to shields" Thats what this is basically, trying to survive for a few moments longer to at least give your opponent a scar to remember.

I never noticed the mitigation since all the battle i fight have 100 plus ships.
Reply #18 Top
Your point, Krauser, is good in that it points out that Focus Fire isn't black and white. Its often a good tactic. More than often. But of course you wouldn't force fire your fighters onto a capital unless you absolutely needed the extra umph, or that LRM was never a threat anyway and you can clean it up while passing by to phase jump.

Transitive, "shield mitigation is NOT a mechanic to discourage focus firing. it is mechanic to enable tactical management as a relevant factor in battle by slowing damage dealing at a rate related to the amount of damage being dealt. if the shield mitigation didn't exist the game would be very heavily pushed in the direction of undirected, zerg-like strategic combat where your best plan would be to focus only on macro-management and direct ships to a battlefield while zoomed all the way out. the mechanic as implemented in the game is very successful at extending the lives of ships under attack long enough for tactical management to become relevant."

I don't see how this proves shield mitigation is what keeps micro-managing tactics worthwhile. It could help in the "oh crap, I'd better retreat that flak" arena, but that could have been accomplished in many ways, not just with something like shield mitigation. A few large ships, rather than many small, would do the same (sort of like the 'stack units' does). Or highly differentiated ship-to-ship roles (which we have). But mostly its the auto-pilot AI that determines how much micro is needed. If the player's "set and forget" AI was really rich (scriptable responses, etc..), then less micro needed. If the player's AI was really poor at choosing targets at all, then more micro than we have now. Where is mitigation in that other than a wildcard that gives a few seconds to some ships in some situations: When retreating might actually save a focus-fired ship.
Reply #19 Top
We all know you should focus on one ship.. but so what? :/

The AI auto-focuses fire even.

It's intended..

I believe it's more there so that overwhelming force is less instawin. I think it's more anti-zerg than anti-focus fire.
Obviously making 30 units do 1/2th damage (42% instead of 85%) isn't a HUGE effect to make focus firing useless.
Reply #20 Top
I am not arguing whether one should bother to focus fire in game; FF is probably still better than random firing in sins. However, your theory that shield mitigation promotes FF is incorrect, and your reasonings are misguided.

Let's first start with a simpler scenario where there is no reduction in shield mitigation over time (which, of course, is wrong). I argue that FF and random firing are equally effective in terms of damage potential in the current implementation of game mechanics.

To see this, without any decay in mitigation over time, there is a one to one correspondence between a ship's Hull point level and mitigation level. (If you aren't aware of this already, shield mitigation increases over damage taken, something like 3% every 40 damage, rather than the times it has been hit) Thus, mitigation is just a form of effective HP multiplier similar to armor value. The relevant implication is that, assuming your fleet's damage output is constant (meaning your ships don't die), it would take exactly the same amount of time for you to kill the enemy fleet regardless of whether you are focus firing or random firing. (Of course, this means, in actual game play, focus firing is preferred, because your ships do die, and you care about how much damage you take)

Now consider the case where shield mitigation actually decays over time. With more opponent's ships damaged with higher-than-base-value mitigation, more ships are subject to the effect of shield mitigation decay over time. Since shield mitigation makes ships last longer, shield mitigation decay makes than die faster, and this ensures that random firing has better damage potential compared to focus firing. (Meaning, assuming a constant damage output from your fleet, enemy fleet dies faster with random firing compared to focus firing. It is unclear whether focus firing or random firing is advantageous in actual game play, theoretically speaking, but I think many players will tell you that focus firing is still more effective in their experience, and they are probably right.)

To gives an easy to understand example, consider your case where there are 10 LRM fighting another 10 LRM. If 10 LRMs are focus firing on 1 LRM, it will reach the 57% (or 60, if you'd like) eventually, while if we have 10 LRMs attacking 10 different LRMs, the mitigation will stays at 15% in ALL time due to mitigation decay over time. Why is this, you ask? It's because there is 10 times the mitigation decay at work in this situation. It is obvious that the damage potential of random firing is quite a bit higher than that of focus firing.

Again, please let me reiterate that, I am not claiming that random firing is better than focus firng in actual game play; it could very well be the case that focus firing is still more effective than random firing even after shield mitigation is taken into account. However, shield mitigation certainly does NOT promote focus firing. Indeed, what it clearly does, is to enhances the relative effectiveness of random firing.
Reply #21 Top
"there is a one to one correspondence between a ship's Hull point level and mitigation level"

Wait wait. You're saying that mitigation increases as hull decreases?

Then focus firing is still attractive for all the usual reasons, as every ship is going to have high mitigation as it dies.

But then you say "shield mitigation increases over damage taken".

Well, OK, but that is quite different than above.

....

Its far too easy to saturate a target's mitigation, currently. To avoid the effects is to purposefully spread fire, which is absolute suicide. Mitigation decay is likewise too slow to offset the benefits of FF. So the whole thing just operates as a cutoff for how much damage is worth bringing to bear on a ship: If you can go above the cutoff, then FF is much more attractive than if there were no mitigation at all. The worst-case scenario is to nearly saturate multiple targets: No DPS/fleet size advantage, and most damage absorption possible (because we're also factoring in shield and hull restore, which you fail to mention).

Mitigation is like: "Want to max out your DPS? O.K., Hit me just hard enough that I can restore shields and hull such that this will take nearly forever at max DPS (least direct absorption through mitigation, most through restore)". OR, OR, "Just Focus Fire the hell out of this fleet, and properly use tactics.". Mitigation takes out the middle ground, and since the first option is laughable, the second is much more attractive.
Reply #22 Top
Mitigation increases by 1% for every 10 damage being taken by a ship at a particular time. I don't know the decay rate, but it obviously can't match the pace at which ships can deal raw damage. This way, mitigation will inevitably reach it's cap, making spread fire pointless since you'll be fighting mitigation and regeneration at the same time, and repair auras like those from Repair Platforms and the Skirantra Carrier will become more effective.
Reply #23 Top
Damage types are still more important. You dont want all ships targeting one, instead its better to have anti-light target light ships, anti medium target medium ships and so forth.
Reply #24 Top
Mitigation increases by 1% for every 10 damage being taken by a ship at a particular time. I don't know the decay rate, but it obviously can't match the pace at which ships can deal raw damage. This way, mitigation will inevitably reach it's cap, making spread fire pointless since you'll be fighting mitigation and regeneration at the same time, and repair auras like those from Repair Platforms and the Skirantra Carrier will become more effective.
End of quote


1.25% is the decay rate per second, basically meaning 12.5 dps and under doesnt increase mitigation (well it will jump up some times to ~17, but then decay back down to ~15).
Reply #25 Top
It looks to me that the AI will automatically do an economical focus-fire with a fleet of LRMs - and from my experience it has felt more efficient than manualy targetting. Manually chaining targets guarantees you get the order you want, but you generally waste a ton of missiles to overkill, whereas the AI seems to take into account target hitpoints and only fire at it sufficient ammo to kill; it'll then have any ships which would be firing excess missiles target something else for that volley.
Or at least, this is what I think I've observed. Certainly, I manage my LRMs by parking them just within missile range of enemy ships, and let them choose where to fire.