Espionage cost rise

Inability to defend against spies?

from GalCiv2 Forums
In my current game, I constantly get the message of new spies planted and even though being with +2000 in the green, I cannot produce spies fast enough to get rid of the enemy spies. Furthermore, four AI players can produce much more spies than I can, even if spend the same amount they do, summed up. This is because the spy costs rise with the number of spies you have trained, instead of the number of spies active, what I would understand.

Can you tell me, wether there is a cap on the rise of the spy recruitment costs?
Can someone tell me the exact formula for spy costs?

The way it is right now, I am unable to prevent others from gathering intel, sabotagin precursor mines and finally stealing tech from a certain point of the game on, because the costs are prohibitive.

P.S.: What is the logics behind linking the spy cost to the total number trained than to the number trained and still living/active?
19,329 views 27 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Not answering your question but as a side note, if your up against 4 empires spamming you you really need to bite the bullet and put a counter espionage on every planet effected. you loose a tile on each but better loose a tile of your choice then theirs.
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
This isn't a straightforward method by any means, but one way to keep the other races from spying on you too much is having everyone go to war with each other early into the game. This way they're not spending their economy on spying, but on attacking and defending.

If you're strong enough, do the same. Keep other civs at bay by attacking if you can. They won't spend anything (or much) on spies. They will also likely be spying on each other too, and not just focusing on you.
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Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Does the counter-espionage center nullify already existing agents?
Not as far as I know, but I might be wrong.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
CE Center does not stop spies already planted.

The general idea is that the AIs will pile spies on the leading player (whether it's you or another AI). If you can't manage to nullify them, you need to either build CE Centers to stop the inflow, or just decide which ones you can tolerate and leave them.
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
But the thing is, that when I tolerate them, they start gathering intel and finally steal techs. Ok, see that as a balancing feature.

But the leading power is thus unable to gather intel about the other races. I basically approve the current system, but the spy costs should not rise. That way, the others could still gang up on one party but that party would be able to cope with the spies by spending the necessary amount of money.

My starships don't get more expensive, the more I build of them (though I pay upkeep, which is perfectly fine).

My planets don't get smaller, the more I have of them.

Do my spies get dumber, every time I train one?

I would be nice if GC2 offered a way to use spies to hinder an opponent prior to a war or maybe even lead a spy war.

The way it is implemented now, there is no single reason to use spies offensively, because once you are #1, you will need them all in defense of your planets. Furthermore, you have to hope that you are conquering the galaxy fast enough so that you do not run out of spies.
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
there is no single reason to use spies offensively, because once you are #1, you will need them all in defense of your planets.
End of quote

When a spy costs more than a fully armed huge hull ship, you know what you need to build. When you're #1, you roll over the opposition and don't bother with spies. Once one civ is gone, so are their spies.

BR, Iztok
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Hi!
there is no single reason to use spies offensively, because once you are #1, you will need them all in defense of your planets.

When a spy costs more than a fully armed huge hull ship, you know what you need to build. When you're #1, you roll over the opposition and don't bother with spies. Once one civ is gone, so are their spies.

BR, Iztok

End of quote


Also, when you conquer a planet, all spies planted there disappear. Ships conquer planets. Spies, however, do play a minor side role in helping get the ship built or killing/demoralizing enemy troops.

Also, much of the info you get from espionage levels can be obtained through other means. Even with Starbases, you can just go to the diplomacy screen and right click on the name of the starbase you want to see, under 'Starships'.

Do my spies get dumber, every time I train one?
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Yes, spies do get dumber and dumber. They nullify enemy spies only through kamikaze attacks, and upon landing on a foreign world, they immediately let it be known to the target civilization that they're being spied upon.
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I would be nice if GC2 offered a way to use spies to hinder an opponent prior to a war or maybe even lead a spy war.
End of quote


Where did you get the impression that you couldn't use spies in peacetime to hinder an opponent? You can totally CRIPPLE an opponent with spies without ever going to war with them. Part of the secret to using spies effectively is to use them EARLY. Start the game by producing them at max and never stop unless you have to tap the spy slider as a casflow reserve. Try slapping spies on a newly discovered race's labs and tech capital in the early game, or on banks, or on farms at any time. Also, remember, spies do not reveal who originated them, so they don't change your diplomatic relations.

But if you like the espionage system, and you want to make it work for you, you MUST realize that the counter espionage centers are an integral part of it. It isn't a total waste of a tile otherwise either, as the CEC is also quite a powerful morale building (usually the only one I build). Its a great thing to put on a mystic spring.

drrider
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Its a great thing to put on a mystic spring.
End of quote


See, i didn't realize that the bonus would apply to ANY structure with a morale boost. Are you sure of this? Does this mean also, that a stock exchange will get the bonus from a 100% influense bonus tile? I usually ignore those.

I use spies early, at a low level you can see the destination of AI ships. I like to place them on AI captials that i find, enemy or not. The best use of spies i think is placeing them on farms a turn before your transport gets there, then the population will drop as if there was no farm. So it'll take much rewer troopps to take the planet and/or leave you with a better populated world once you take it. This also damages AI economies but dropping thier tax paying populations.

I guess spies cost more because they have to get the lastest edition of the text book. I mean colledge gets more expensive all the time and yet the professors are the same and the students dont come out smarter than the class that paid less tuition. But making spies cost more makes the game work, it makes you consider when and where to use them, also in the later game your economy is much greater compared to the eary game. Imagine in the late game if everyone could build a spy every other turn. It would suck. As a side, i have yet to have a real problem with enemy spies.
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I see the reason for the cost increase, but this increase should be linked to something else, e.g. the empire size or the size of the population. That would be fair and would make spy wars feasible.

When the espionage system leads to a narrowing of the options, like it does now, it should be changed.

Now, once you are number 1, you have to roll over the opposition. Hmm, great, how interesting. If you asked my, DA has introduced a feature that makes the game less multifaceted. Additionally, it introduced an exploit: One farm sabotaged and three+ billion people instantly die from hunger ... yeah, right.
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The DA espionage system is a major reason I'm starting out playing DL. For my first few games I don't need this extra complication. However, what I've read is the devs understand this needs to be tweaked and will do so in a future patch, maybe 2.0.
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Does this mean also, that a stock exchange will get the bonus from a 100% influense bonus tile?
End of quote


I'm a lazy 'tard, or I'd do this myself, but...the Wiki page for "special resources" could use a *lot* more content, starting perhaps with a matrix of what buildings can use each type of bonus tile.

It also looks like the Wiki could use some disambiguation work on the "bonus tile" vs "special tile" and "bonus" as it applies to your empire's overall bonuses (the ones you choose at startup and enhance by exploring anomalies).

p.s. Pardon the appearance of threadjacking. I just wanted to commend the aside question and encourage those who can donate careful thought and typing to work on the GC2 Wiki.
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

The DA espionage system is a major reason I'm starting out playing DL. For my first few games I don't need this extra complication. However, what I've read is the devs understand this needs to be tweaked and will do so in a future patch, maybe 2.0.
End of quote


Definitely 2.0. Brad's already confirmed it.
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
It's actually a bit annoying. But what happens after training a certain number of spies the game makes it fair for everyone by making it longer to train more spies while the price is still high and you have it maxed out.
Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Definitely 2.0. Brad's already confirmed it.
End of quote


Can you give a thread reference here? I try to watch DA espionage talk, but I don't recall a thread with any specifics about changes planned for DA 2.0.
Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

But the leading power is thus unable to gather intel about the other races.
End of quote

Wrong. You just need to be aware that you will need some time and that you (or the AI) can only produce at best a spy each turn. So if you want to gather intel about another race, you need to create a pool of lots of spies and deploy them all at once against a simple race. Sure, the first turn, many spies will be nullified if the opposing race has enough spies. But after that, it will be able to nullify at most a spy per turn. That could let you enough turn to gather intel.

And as previously said, the counter espionnage center can be a worthwile investissement even if it is very costly to build. You just need to remember that it will only prevent NEW spies from being deployed on your planet.

Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
What we want to do is after Twilight of the Arnor, go back and update the base game as well as Dark Avatar to version 2.0.

It may be a long time before we do a GalCiv III so we want to make sure GalCiv II is left in a state that lets it stand the test of time.

I know one of the updates in 2.0 would be to allow people to assign espionage agents to a civilization rather than a planet so that they can collect info and such without being at risk of being nullified (more like the Dread Lords espionage).
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From https://forums.galciv2.com/?forumid=164&aid=165537&p=1#1342616
Reply 17
Reply #18 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Rasori, thanks for the information. That is good news.

Peace Phoenix, sorry, but you are wrong. Since you play on painful, let us assume, that your economy is about two times as strong as the AI economy, for example. You have four enemies and I assume the following formula for spy costs: S = A + B*X, meaning a linear acceleration.

With A = 100, B = 100 and a monthly spending of 100 or 200 for you over 100 turns, you will get the following outcome:

You spend 20.000 bucks and get 20 spies.
They EACH spend 10.000 bucks and get 13 spies EACH.

This means, you can gather some intel if you push all of your spies into one of your four enemies, lose 13 of them and consecutively lose them all, if they do not work fast enough. On the downside, you will be open for spy attacks!
Furthermore, you are up against 52 spies, while you only have 20 to defend with.

Seriously, this system might be fine to slow the leader down, but it is illogic, unfair and makes spying for offensive uses not the best choice around.
Reply #19 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

This means, you can gather some intel if you push all of your spies into one of your four enemies, lose 13 of them and consecutively lose them all, if they do not work fast enough. On the downside, you will be open for spy attacks!
End of quote

Well, I guess it depends of the timing of starting intel gathering versus manufacturing counter espionnage building.

Furthermore, you are up against 52 spies, while you only have 20 to defend with.
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If you need to defend yourself

Reply #20 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Seriously, this system might be fine to slow the leader down, but it is illogic, unfair and makes spying for offensive uses not the best choice around.
End of quote


You deal with what you get for the time being, it's being changed in the future anyway. If you're the leader, then why aren't you leading? Are you just sitting there while everyone is spying on you? If you don't want to be spied on... don't be the leader, or maybe get rid of your opponents. Maybe try a harder difficulty; playing on obscene, I'm generally not the leader for a good portion of the game. Result, little or no offensive spies to worry about!

Again, it also helps to keep everyone's economy tied up in spending on war.
Reply #21 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Its a great thing to put on a mystic spring.


See, i didn't realize that the bonus would apply to ANY structure with a morale boost. Are you sure of this? Does this mean also, that a stock exchange will get the bonus from a 100% influense bonus tile? I usually ignore those.

I use spies early, at a low level you can see the destination of AI ships. I like to place them on AI captials that i find, enemy or not. The best use of spies i think is placeing them on farms a turn before your transport gets there, then the population will drop as if there was no farm. So it'll take much rewer troopps to take the planet and/or leave you with a better populated world once you take it. This also damages AI economies but dropping thier tax paying populations.

I guess spies cost more because they have to get the lastest edition of the text book. I mean colledge gets more expensive all the time and yet the professors are the same and the students dont come out smarter than the class that paid less tuition. But making spies cost more makes the game work, it makes you consider when and where to use them, also in the later game your economy is much greater compared to the eary game. Imagine in the late game if everyone could build a spy every other turn. It would suck. As a side, i have yet to have a real problem with enemy spies.
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Yes, ANY building that gives a certain bonus will work with a special tile, provided the bonus is outputted as a base value. A Stock Market will receive the bonus from a Ruins tile. A Counter Espionage Center does receive a bonus from a Mystic Spring tile. This much I've seen in game.

However, a Research Coordination Center, Technological Capital or Omega Research Center will not benefit from Research Bonus tiles since they don't give base value output, and instead are mere magnifiers. Same with all Powerplants and the Manufacturing Capital. The Artificial Slave Center, Restaurant of Eternity and all Trade Goods remain unaffecting by special tiles since they give multiplicative galaxy-wide civilization bonuses and not base output.

However, I don't know whether the Political Capital would be affected or not. It gives a base Morale and Influence bonus only to the planet it's built on, which means it should be affected by Ruins or Mystic Springs, but it's also a Super Project, and a Capital, which, according to the Wiki, means that it shouldn't be affected by bonus tiles. Strange paradox.
Reply #22 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
However, I don't know whether the Political Capital would be affected or not. It gives a base Morale and Influence bonus only to the planet it's built on, which means it should be affected by Ruins or Mystic Springs
End of quote

I just checked. It IS affected: the Mystic Spring doubles its morale effect.

BR, Iztok
Reply #23 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Its a great thing to put on a mystic spring.


See, i didn't realize that the bonus would apply to ANY structure with a morale boost. Are you sure of this? Does this mean also, that a stock exchange will get the bonus from a 100% influense bonus tile? I usually ignore those.

I use spies early, at a low level you can see the destination of AI ships. I like to place them on AI captials that i find, enemy or not. The best use of spies i think is placeing them on farms a turn before your transport gets there, then the population will drop as if there was no farm. So it'll take much rewer troopps to take the planet and/or leave you with a better populated world once you take it. This also damages AI economies but dropping thier tax paying populations.
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Ummmm, I'm going to START using Spies on my next game!!!

  That sounds like a splendid idea!!!!!!

Reply #24 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

However, a Research Coordination Center, Technological Capital or Omega Research Center will not benefit from Research Bonus tiles since they don't give base value output, and instead are mere magnifiers. Same with all Powerplants and the Manufacturing Capital. The Artificial Slave Center, Restaurant of Eternity and all Trade Goods remain unaffecting by special tiles since they give multiplicative galaxy-wide civilization bonuses and not base output.
End of quote




WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAT   

This ENTIRE time, I've been waaaaaiting until I had a badass tile on a planet before building either my Technological Capital or Manufacturing Capital....


ooooooh my lord... what a load...


I wish there was a DEFINING manual from Stardock on HOW the game works - because the manual DOES not give an accurate breakdown on the game...

That pisses me off, this whole time I didn't know that and was only penalizing myself by not building those Capitals SOONER in the game...


Thks for the info though, I'm going to start playing a whole lot more efficiently now.

Reply #25 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The way it is implemented now, there is no single reason to use spies offensively, because once you are #1, you will need them all in defense of your planets. Furthermore, you have to hope that you are conquering the galaxy fast enough so that you do not run out of spies.
End of quote


Furthermore, the new espionage system completely falls apart on larger maps, as there is no way to generate enough spies to actually hurt any one player, because every player has so much redundant capacity. If you get three or four spies on a world (which is good under the current system) and manage to slow a single planet down a little, they have plenty of other planets for production, tech and economy. There is zero impact. The new espionage system operates as little more than a tax or money sink.

Big thanks to the devs for looking at this and giving it an overhaul. It can't come soon enough in my book...I'm looking forward to 2.0 as much as TotA now.