Dark Avatar -- Starbases

I like the idea of combat modules. However, in my own gameplay, I never fortify my starbases, relying on my fleets to protect my assets.

I'm going to be very disappointed if something isn't done for the sake of starbases. These are all real problems you've mentioned.

I'll also add two cents to this. Starbases are so weak that it makes no sense to upgrade them at all beyond whatever benefit the player is trying to get. SO, why have defensive or offensive modules at all if they don't play any significant role in gameplay. I would prefer starbases be much stronger in a fight.

...Starbases are so weak that it makes no sense to upgrade them at all beyond whatever benefit the player is trying to get...

You do make a good point in that line. If a player only wanted to have a starbase that improved economy, he is free to install only those modules. If the same player wanted a starbase that 'could' actually defend itself, the player should be able to build such a starbase. It doesn't have to be easy or cheap, much like Doom Rays. Its takes a lot of research to develop Doom Rays and, even then, costs a lot to deploy them on a ship.

...to get. SO, why have defensive or offensive modules at all if they don't play any significant role in gameplay. I would prefer starbases be much stronger in a fight.

This problem is sort of why I made this post. I feel that a starbase should at least be able to take down a few huge hulled ships without dying...

Just thought of a third point.
#3: Same starbases, meaner huge hulls.
In Dark Avatar, huge hulls now have more space and hit points. If a starbase was having trouble with huge hulls in Dread Lords, then they are going to be easily overwhelmed in Dark Avatar.

I decided to compare the new huge hulls to existing starbases in a battle of the gods scenerio. Suffice to say, I could build a huge hulled ship that exceeded the stats of a starbase in every way, and still have more room to add stuff. It had more hitpoints, stronger attacks, better defense. Not only that, but it could also fly around the map, and finally, it could fully benefit from the new combat system. I tested my test ship against a fleet of ships I gave the AI.

I just hope that starbases are not neglected in the expansion.

I suspect that the "defenses stop mattering after stage X in the game" thing has at least a few signficiant dependencies on play style, or at least for tech-heavy strategies. For DL, I almost always played gigantic maps and it took the AIs until very late in the game to build single ships that could zap my fully defended bases.

That said, I believe the OP might have some valid points here and would very much like to see a Stardock response to the basic question of whether base mechanics will get some improvements and what those might be. At the very least, enabling each different weapon type to fire (three shots instead of one) makes some sense. It really does seem like the bases need some balance re the combat system changes (which I very much like overall).

I'm also still hoping to see an option for using constructors to add hit points.

Sadly the AI's doesn't seem to realise how important it is too take out resource starbases in a war (including military ones).

Until this changes i'm happy for Starbases to remain weak militarily adding/improving extra modules to improve there attack and defence currently would not improve the game imo. The fact that ships are now a lot slower has in affect improved there chances of survival (it's easier to defend them with a nearby stationed fleet).

Frankly I think there are possibly too many resources i'd be glad to see 1 military resourse per map personally.

IMO there are two ways to counteract the weaker starbase problem.

First, as mentioned above, implement some way of increasing the base hit points of a starbase. This could be a whole seperate upgrade tree available to all three kinds of starbases.

Second, let them join fleets. Rather than putting a fleet on the same square as the starbase, give the starbases a logistics value and join the fleet. This way, a few small, lower tech ships could run interference from enemy fire (mitigating the defense degredation of the starbase, as it wouldn't be taking the first attacks) and therefore giving the 'big guns' of the starbase more rounds to take down incoming fighters. Fleets that included starbases couldn't move, but otherwise would act like any other fleet.

Other solutions become more complicated and less intuitive. Micromanaging every weapon on a starbase simply becomes cumbersome, as you need to worry about each individual weapon for each individual starbase. There are no starbase templates like there are ship templates - so with a SB you can't design one and then kick a bunch out. In any case, you want a change that is easy for hardcore and casual gamers to get the hang of quickly - there is a point of diminishing returns on adding depth to (micro)-management.

Starbases are good for the economy and increasing influence. I have noticed though when confronted with a large fleet of powerful enemy ships they don't fair so well as far as defending planets. I do think more offensive power and defensive power should be put into starbases but should be limited to say I placed a starbase on my border to protect invading armies . These starbase would be a special type of starbase that you would have to research a tech for . Could be called Sentry technology or Offensive Starbase Assault Technology. This would allow starbase to defend borders . The offensive starbases would only be built near borders . Defensive near planets and what not. Anyways I usually rely on fleets building starbases as needed .   

Yep I agree with the OP and Wyndstar's idea of adding HP with additional constructors say up to 250 base HP not including level up increases with each constuctor adding say 2-4 HP. Nothing worse than building up a level 30 starbase for it to be destroyed by a fleet of well equipped small hulled enemy fighters (I was keeping it's defensive ratings low for faster level ups). Also the ability for the starbase to participate in defending battles with defending ships so the starbase also gets XP. The AI would obviously have to be programmed to take advantage of this defensive capability also when warring factions to it are in close proximity.

I suspect that the "defenses stop mattering after stage X in the game" thing has at least a few signficiant dependencies on play style, or at least for tech-heavy strategies. For DL, I almost always played gigantic maps and it took the AIs until very late in the game to build single ships that could zap my fully defended bases.

Some games I've played did get past this "stage X", and I'm certain that many other players have as well. Until that time, starbases can take care of themselves. I often leave them as 'traps' early in the game so the AI will be tempted to destroy them, and thus send their ships to their doom. My concern is, because of the new combat system, that this "stage X" can be reached a lot sooner, and the power gap can get to be a lot bigger.

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Anyhow, I've done some thinking about possible solutions. This is what I've come up with:

1#: Space Stations and Space Fortresses.
The term "Starbases" might be a little miss-leading. That term implies that all starbases should be combat capable, even after this "stage X". To solve this problem, each starbase type should be able to have the option of being a Space Station (Non-combat design), Starbase (Moderate combat value), or a Space Fortress (Extremely difficult to destroy). This will provide something for starbases to be compared to in terms of power. Obviously, the Space Fortress model should have "Combat Modules" un-available to the other designs, but may be very expensive to add, and may require additional techs. Space Fortresses should also have much more hitpoints, at least more than an average huge hull. It might be a good idea to have Space Fortresses to cost more to build initially, and have a larger upkeep cost so players don't automatically make Space Fortresses because its strongest design.

#2: Drydocks.
Although I would like starbases to be stronger, I wouldn't mind having a new type instead. Drydocks, like seen in various sci-fi shows such as Startrek, can build space ships in space. Like planets, they should have their own production rating that they can use to build ships. They should also pay for any production they do use, much like planets. Their production rating should be upgradable by installing new modules, possibly unlocked by researching industrial and power plant techs, or even by their own tech branch.

The only problem is, what is the right balance of production for this new starbase? Having them being too little will prevent them from being able to build anything except the cheapest of designs. On the other hand, having the production being too big will allow them spam powerful ships.

This is a difficult question to answer. I expect that different players build ships their ships in different ways. Some might build just the hulls, so they are produced quicker, and then upgrade them to what ever they want. That would reduce their production requirements, and would leave them with more room on their planets for other structures such as stock markets. Some players might create a few specialized factory worlds that could spam weak ships, or build strong ones with terrifying speed. Others might try to make every planet moderately capable of producing ships. This helps to prevent them from being crippled if they lose a world or two. Some players might even skip the whole building their own ships process and simply buy them off the other races. Not only does it provide them with ships, but also reduces opposing military might. I'm also sure that the Korx enjoy the business arrangement too.

P.S.
For #2. Could some people provide some insight in other methods that might be used to produce ship? It'll help in finding a good balance. Also, how much production do consider moderate?

One other idea.

WHy not allow people to make their own starbase modules, like the ship designer.

Give a module say 50 space, and you can chuck as much weapons or armor on it as you can afford. Would be more expensive then what you have now, but much stronger. Miniaturization helps. If you want nano rippers on a SB, it will cost you. Half what it would on a ship, but it still costs.

You'd also have to port the module there on a cargo hull.

Option 2:

Allow multiple upgrades of the same type for starbases, at a premium based on logistics techs researches, so if you want multiple devastation beams, you can do it.

More costly again, but if you want your starbase to have 200 attack, you can have it.
About 20-25 modules though

With the pirates mega event starbases don't stand much of a chance even if you got all available modules installed. I made sure i had a fleet standing by to counter them . A starbase should be able to withstand more than say 1 fleet.

One suggestion might be a new line of tech modules - targetting computers. Each new module will add to number of ships that can be fire upon.

Pirates! have toasted every starbase and ship when they appear. It's a slaughter. It has to be the way they are coded. It seems like their ships are over and above what the most powerful military can put up at that point in time.

I like the starbase fleets idea (allowing starbases to join a fleet).

It's simple and elegant, IMHO... In 'reality' any starbase is likely to rely on some sort of detached vehicle(s) for defense -- so simply allowing starbases into fleets would be great. They would, of course, be immobile.

The other plus - it's annoying when my 'defensive base protection' fleets (made up ships with high defensive value, but no engines whatsoever) constantly wake from their 'guard' missions... even when the enemy force is of absolutely no risk to them. A fleet including a base should never wake - unless you disband the fleet and manually move the ships away.

One couple other suggestions...

- Ships in a starbase 'fleet' should get some sort of defensive bonus... in fact, I'd almost prefer to see the military starbase go away entirely, and just let me add assist module to econ and mining starbases.

- Starbases should ALWAYS be the last target in a fleet vs. starbase fleet action... or at least, they should require a good deal of good fortune to end up as the first recipient of an enemy barrage.

- Starbase fleet ships should get a repair bonus -- since they're detached to defend a base, it's only logical that there would be facilities that would ease repairs.