70% population growth civilization ability

I don't think it's a must have. I generally use the +20% pop, and then shoot to get aphrodisiac.

For me that's more than enough pop growth. Personally I'm coming to believe that the morale and economy bonuses are what's out of line. Lots of the other bonuses are just too weak to merit spending points on them, so either the good ones should be nerfed or the rest improved.

I don't think the population growth bonus is a must have at all.
However, I do feel it is definitely the most advantageous of the civ ability picks.

It does require skill to utilize the population growth bonus effectively.
It is very easy to reach a planets max population with the bonus and have no population growth at all. Or if a player gets too large a max population limit on a planet, the fast population growth will create morale problems a lot faster.

I think the civ ability picks are pretty well balanced overall.

I just posted a thesis on the subject of racial ability selections in the following thread. Take a look if you want my opinion.

WWW Link

Basically, I think the 70% racial bonus is a must have. I also think the 30% economic bonus is a must have and the 20% morale bonus ia a must have. The problem is that this represents 13 racial ability points worth of "must have" abilities, but you only get 10 points, so somethings got to give. There are ways around this using the free abilities that each race gets but there's almost always a tradeoff. I'm not so sure *everyone* will agree on these must have's.

I look at the 70% pop growth as the best pick because it helps your colonies grow faster and therefore become productive sooner. IMHO it's the best pick out there. At 6 points it's expensive but I think it's worth it. The problem is that I *really* don't want them to nerf this like so much else that's been nerfed. I would agree that perhaps it's worth more than 6 points, 7 perhaps?

I feel the 70% pop growth bonus is largely redundant since 1.3 was released - the 8 billion starting pop mitigates it's need to provide coloniser passengers, and the move away from huge planet populations due to the nerfing of farms and morale buildings means that it is only useful for a very limited amount of time - which for 6 points is not good value.

Furthermore, taking it without an associated morale bonus can do you more harm than good as your pop growth can outstrip your morale ability in the early game, resulting in having to keep taxes lower.

I don't think any of the options are a "must have", but I usually go for the ones that will be in effect for the whole game. The most important thing to remember is not to spread the points around too much. Pick 2 or 3 options and maximize them - then play to your race's strengths.

I don't feel any of the bonuses have so much of an impact as to make a particular one prerequisite for a successful game. However, the 70% population bonus is a good one to go for. You can certainly do well in the game putting your bonus points in other areas. Economy is good to have, morale is good to have, production is good to have. In any case, I don't think it's something to get too concerned about. Just go for whatever strikes you as valuable. In my case, it's population, morale, and luck.

Wow, I just take 1 Extra Trade Route, 20% extra on Military Prod, and 50% on Social Prod. (Pacifists)

TIP

I actually have never used this particular advantage; 70% seems unrealistic to me. Even now, the Earth is swiftly becoming overpopulated. We are eating up our resources at an ever increasing rate. The forests of the world are being hacked down, the seas are overfished to the point of becoming barren, and mineral deposits are quickly being depleted and fed into factories that are poisoning our air and water; to the point that if something is not done, this planet will soon be uninhabitable. Could you possibly imagine a birth rate more than triple the one we have now? Wars, famine, pestilence on a scale unimaginable would have happened centuries ago. There is no possible way that our technology would have risen to a point where we would have invented the telegraph, not to mention the 'hyperdrive'. These would be the same problems that virtually any race in the galaxy would face, with perhaps a couple of exceptions. The Yor are a machine race. Crank up the production until their population curve crosses their resource curve, then stop. No prob. The Thalans, being an insectoid race, might have a different outlook on things. Lay eggs as fast as they can, then either swarm, or eat them. So what do the other races do when their population caps? Are they all just going to stop doing the 'bonga-bonga'? I don't think so. So what? Forced abortions like the Chinese? The Drengin, perhaps, but none of the others. This is a real problem in this game. I say leave the 70% in. If you want to make your people hornier and more fertile, that should be your choice. But there should be some serious penalties to pay. Reduced production, (due to depletion of natural resources) morale penalties, likelyhood of civil war, and chances for plagues should be seriously considered. To tell the truth, though, I am not totally without sin...I always use the +20% rate myself.  

Hi!

everyone with any experience agrees that 70% population growth is a must-have civ ability.

With starting 8B pop and nerfed morale buildings 70% bonus to growth bacame quite less important. I used to chose it when its cost was 5, with 4 points to econ. Now my usuall picks are +30% growth (3 points), +30% econ (4 points), 10% morale (1 point), the remaining 3 I put in whatever field I feel I'll need with the strategy I'll pursue in the game.
Still I try to buy Aphrodisiacs from whatever race researches them. They really do help in pop-drop wars, but playing as neutral are terra techs pretty low on my priority list.

BR, Iztok

Actually now that I think about it the 70% pop growth bonus is really pretty useless. I don't see why anyone would chose it. I think the cost should be lowered to 5 or even 4.   

I think folks are missing the point. The benefit of 70% growth has absolutely nothing to do with getting large pops or even with your home planets ability to supply colony ships during the rush. As I said before, I chose this ability because

your colonies grow faster and therefore become productive sooner

I don't build farms early so my colonies are limited to a pop of 5B for quite some time. At 5B the colonies generate a positive income, at low pops the colonies income is negative. At exactly what pop your colonies become profitable depends on what you're building, the level of your taxes, etc., but it really doesn't matter. If my colonies start generating a positive income 3 turns earlier (a conservative estimate) because of this pick, that's a huge advantage.

I think folks are missing the point.

Not at all Mumble - I fully understand your reasons and logic for taking it.

I just think that using 6 points for an ability that will only be effective for a small part of the game is not the best use of those points, when the same effect (i.e. colonies profitable earlier) can be achieved with 3 points in morale (enabling higher tax rates), & 3 in economics - both of which are in effect for the entire game.

I just think that using 6 points for an ability that will only be effective for a small part of the game is not the best use of those points, when the same effect (i.e. colonies profitable earlier) can be achieved with 3 points in morale (enabling higher tax rates), & 3 in economics - both of which are in effect for the entire game.

I'm saying that you can have it all. I get a 25% morale bonus, a 30% economic bonus (I think this is 4 points) *and* the 70% pop growth bonus. Plus I take Federalist for another 20% economic bonus. I get this by picking the Torian or Drengin, both of which have a free 25% morale bonus. Spending 3 points on morale as any other race only gets you a 20% bonus.

It is true that if I want to be any other race, I'll have to give something up. I am going for my racial medal so I'm going to have to decide what to do by my next game. I'm not quite sure what I'll do but I'll definitely be spending the points on some combination of pop growth, morale and economics, I really don't think you can make too bad of a decision between these choices.

The other point I want to make, and it's a point I've seen you make as well, is that while it's true pop growth only affects a short part of the game, it's absolutely *the* most critical part of the game.

Growth in this game (and virtually all resource driven games) is based on how many resources you have. The more resources you have, the faster you grow. This is exponential growth. If you can get that extra bit of earlier resource, even if it's effect is temporary, that puts you on a higher growth path that you otherwise could never achieve.

After thinking about it a bit, if I was forced to pick a race other than Torian or Drengin, my ability picks would be 30% economics for 4 points, 20% morale for 3 points and 30% pop growth for 3 points.

So I guess on that basis I'd have to conclude that I felt the economics and morale picks were more important, but I think it's kind of dictated by the points structure. If I had the option of getting, for example, 20% econ for 3, 15% morale for 2 and something like 55% pop growth for 5, I'd probably do it.

I guess this is getting a bit pedantic, if we agree on morale, economics and pop growth then whether it's 20% of this or 25% of that is probably too little difference to notice.

The best combination picks for my game play are below. I look for the best combination of picks for both end game and begining game.

4 points for 30% Economic growth- Higher tax base-bigger fleets, but also helps out early.

3 points for 30% Soldiers- Great end-game pick. Ground attack rating at 115 at end of game. Single 2 million transport can conquer 12 million population planet in one move with +115 soldier rating.

3 points for 30% Population growth. Most of my planets are max out at 17M when it's time to build troop transports.

Sometimes I take the 25% courage pick for 1 point or 10% morale for 1 point and subtract off the soldier picks as necessary. Courage pick makes conquered planet very defendable with only 1M population leftover from invasion march into enemy planets. Morale pick is good early, but no effect late game.

I think the 30% economic and 30% population combination picks are the 1-2 punch. Expansion and growth with no money problems. Biggest fleets. I always have taxes max out at 80% at end of game with morale at 70-80 precent, so the size of the fleet depend on tax base.

Morale pick loses it's effect late game, but 30% soldiers combine with invasion techs and training wonder combined to form a military rating of +115 versus +85 without 3 point pick which makes invasions easier with less transport ships.

Mumblefratz, interstingly, my picks are almost exactly the same as yours. Great minds you know, hehe.

The 70% population bonus gives you an extra push over the hump when you need it most. It may not be of that much benefit throughout the game, but it sure is a help when it's a help. But, it could be considered a waste since it's not always effective like an economy or production bonus. The 70% population bonus also helps when you're filling transports. I don't go out of my way to load them and pull the population off the planet they come from. In that case, the big population bonus gives you a workable ratio on loading versus building.

pop growth only affects a short part of the game

If you're going for a conquest victory, population growth affects two parts of the game - the early colonization phase and the late planetary invasion phase. In both parts of the game, population growth enables a planet to recover quickly from sending out colonists or invasion forces, and enables the population of newly colonized or 'liberated' planets to grow more quickly.

my ability picks would be 30% economics for 4 points, 20% morale for 3 points and 30% pop growth for 3 points

This is also my typical strategy, with leftover points going to either diplomacy or soldiering when I play the Drengin and Torians.

Population growth is a bad pick IF you're going for a peaceful victory on a map where you'll only be able to colonize a few planets. Otherwise, I agree that it's one of the best abilities, along with economy and morale.

I've played without population growth bonuses and I've done fine. I play Human Industrialists with 15%-20% Diplomacy, 20% Research, and occassionally I've toyed with the three point Planet quality bonus. I run against the computer with all nine alien races set at Bright intelligence.

This is in a huge galaxy, abundant planets, abundant inhabitables (I hate games where my empire is stretched halfway across the galaxy for a pittance of planets.)with common anomalies and normal tech (the game I'm doing now is with slow tech).

I run a lean fleet with lots of diplomacy early on, in some cases not even building my first combat ship until I've managed to colonize myself into a corner against other alien borders. The main concentration is running on a few massive ships with a major technological advantage. So far its paid off. I'm usually not at war until well after I have my first Large hull ships flying, and I have no qualms about going 10,000 or more credits in debt to upgrade a class after a string of major tech breakthroughs.

I've thrown them against fleets of 6-9 alien ships, and my record is still better than 60%. When I throw a battlegroup together, I walk all over the computer.

Hi,

I like the military production bonus of 50% for 4 starting points.

It does three things for me:

1) Half of the bonus production is an economic bonus. Since I build lots of ships throughout the game, the economic gain is almost as good as an economic pick.

2) Increases planetary production capacity. Being able to cram as much military production as possible into a single planet is profoundly useful, whether I'm spamming colony ships and constructors on my home planet at the beginning of the game or combat ships later on, hopefully at a planet with starship bonus.

3) Imbalanced abilities allow for easier control over the economy. By playing with the sliders to favor a category in which I'm less efficient, I can slow down my spending without lowering my spend rate. The production bonus in military is more efficient than the bonus for either social or research, yet I can use that bonus either to raise military production or to *lower* it, spending money on the other categories. This flexibility is useful, though less important than the other two.

I currently like Industrialists, Econ +30%, Military +50%, Morale +10% and Pop +10%

Anyway,

Ken

I just think that using 6 points for an ability that will only be effective for a small part of the game is not the best use of those points, when the same effect (i.e. colonies profitable earlier) can be achieved with 3 points in morale (enabling higher tax rates), & 3 in economics - both of which are in effect for the entire game.

How long is the 70% population bonus good for? I play aggressive with very fast research, so I completed my last v1.2, gigantic map, everything abundant game in under 3 years! So the bonus might apply for my entire game.

Well, this thread has certainly been enlightening, and I am glad to see that there are a lot more options than I first had assumed. However, I do still seem to see that while there's many good choices, that does nothing about the choices that you'd be dumb to choose. I hope that Stardock considers a way of making all the options useful, at least to the point that they'd be "good" choices for at least one strategy.

i counted 24 civ ability picks ( in manual ).
I only see Espionage, Loyalty, Range, Repair, and Sensors as almost useless picks.
Even they have uses but for my game play they are pretty useless.

I don't think the other picks are completely equal but they all can be used in good strategies.
I see a lot of them as good choices for a mod type of effect on the game to keep the game fun. And the developers may very well have put a few in that they feel have absolutely no use just to see if a player or 2 can surprise them.

I used to take the 70% population bonus, because I built planets with huge populations to get more points for total population, and create super income generating planets. Now that the changes in 1.3 make it impracticle to have high planet populations, I feel it is a waste of time to try to get a very high population, and the more pressing need is to try to find other ways to get high income which have been hurt because you cannot tax as highly and have large populations paying taxes. So now I settle for 30% population which is adequate for growth and filling up colony ships and transports, and try to partly compensate for the serious hit on the economy by takeing 20% morale, and 30% economy, plus another 20% economy from choosing Federalism, and build lots of stock exchanges. I used to only take the 20% economy bonus from choosing federalist and used those other points for production bonuses, but now I need all the economic help I can get. I still end up with a lot less money then before 1.3, but it is enough to get buy on.

I always play with the custom race, but had forgot about the morale bonus for Drengin and Torian. I may take a second look at these two races to see if they may be a better choice for me. Have to see what else I would lose by switching to them.

Have to see what else I would lose by switching to them.

The only loss you'll notice is the 25% Soldiering bonus. Just make sure you pick up the Tir-Quan training to compensate.

Wow, I'm kinda surprised at all this. Well, I guess not really.

Some people I guess pick ONE way to play the game, and then keep playing that way forever.

I like to change it up. I never play the same game twice.

First time I played the game, I played it using a Custom race.

Then I slowly got better at the game, I think the first time I beat the game on a higher difficulty, I played through as the Terrans.

Then I got into the Yor, I think I played through a couple times.

Then recently I went back to Custom races, and went for a diplomacy win.
The latest game that I had was pretty cool. The game started out with me and the Drengens as being fairly close to each other. Being concerned about this I immediately started walling off my territory, so they ended up with their cluster of planets, plus a few planets here and there scattered throughout the galaxy. My intial plan involved allying myself with everyone EXCEPT the Drengens, because I wasn't an evil race, and I know there's no way they'd exist in my peaceful vision of the universe. They'd piss off SOMEONE.

So as empires grew, I was in 2nd place behind the Drengens. I started making small "donations" to them and trading to them early so as to not be sucked into an early war. I wanted plenty of time to research my diplomacy and get a monster economy going. I did have enough of a military going to be a deterent to anyone looking for an easy kill.

Surprise! Apparently nice guys finish last because the Drengen declared war on me anyways, even though my military was 2nd most powerful after them. I was somewhat surprised. In my experience the Drengens usually like to pick on the weakest militaries first. Our close borders must have made me a juicier target. However, my military wasn't prepared for an invasion. The Drengen came in, and took several worlds from me immediately. I hadn't researched Plantary Invasion or any soldiering techs.

The next few turns consisted of me milking my allies (who weren't allies yet, but everyone was "friendly") for technology and weapons. I got as much as I could though trading some of my less risky techs like engines for more miniaturization, better weapons, advanced hulls, etc. A few turns later I went into the Shipyard and designed my first medium vessel, to repel the Drengen.

The Drengen counterattack took time, but was very successful. My economy was too strong and although my ships were inferior at first, I overwhealmed them with numbers, and soon out-classed them in weapons technology. By the time I was re-conquering the planets the Drengen had taken from me, I had allied with 2 of the other 3 races in the game.

The Drengen were ultimately defeated. At this point my alliance win was in sight. However, I had one race left, and they wouldn't get any better than "friendly" They had too many things going against me to ever get "close" I think. Weren't my ethical alignment, and now that I'd beaten the Dregen, my influence was "Alarming".

I spent a few turns building influence starbases to flip their planets to me, and win peacefully, but that ticket them off and moved them from "friendly" to "warm". I did manage to flip a few planets though. Then however, I just decided to be a bad neighbor, and me and my 2 other allies beat them into submission. After losing 2 more planets and a buch of fleets to my highly advanced fleet, They surrendured to me. Good thing too! I was bankrupt. I re-designed the workhorse of my fleet with updated weapons, and armor to protect against Mass Drivers, since they were all equipped with ECM since the Drengen had focused on Missle tech. I made the mistake of upgrading ALL of my ships at once, which put me in the hole by 100,000 credits. Even though I was making almost 1000 credits a turn, I couldn't produce ANYTHING, nor would I be able to for quite awhile. But it all turned out well in the end.

Sorry - I didn't mean for this to be so huge!

But anyways, there's my story of my latest game, without relying on 70% population growth or anything like that.

However, I do still seem to see that while there's many good choices, that does nothing about the choices that you'd be dumb to choose.

Which ones would be dumb to choose?

Weapons and hull strength are good for those who like aggressive games right out of the barrel. Though pathetic in the later battle, in those early turns, the relative advantage of this can get you well ahead of your enemies.

Speed and Sensors can be an incredible trump for the opening race for colonies. These can present minor advantages in the later game once the arms race is underway.

Planet quality can make a marginal planet worth having, and combined with a lucky event, could turn a planet into a REAL sweet deal.

Research speaks for itself, along with the production bonuses.

Diplomacy can make the difference between maintaining a technical edge, and having to forgo a trade for an alien tech you need now, not 30 weeks down the road.


There's never a bad skill, its a badly used skill.