[1.004] AIs cheat WAY too much, even considering very high difficulty.

kwm1800

Join Date 03/2008

+26

[1.004] AIs cheat WAY too much, even considering very high difficulty.

To the point of being absurd.

Just finished and won Expert/Expert on 12x8 map with epic setting, with all 8 stock AIs, playing my custom kingdom (Master Scout, Betrayers, Lightplate) with Beastlord. A while ago I also won Insane/Insane as Verga Yithril with similar setting, except the map was normal 'Large' and pace was 'normal' instead of 'epic'

Everything except resource frequency is 'dense' and/or 'plenty'. And here is my impression on AI.

1.) Monsters just do not attack AI as much as attacking players. Yes I did see an army of death demons attacking AI's invading stack from time to time, but it is ALWAYS absurd to see a very well-developed cities right next to slag/drake/dragon lairs. While they are nicer way to avoid 5-turn cooldown on 'raze' option for captured city (since as soon as I obtained a city, those huge monsters immediately attack that city so I don't have to bother waiting for 'raze' option to be available.)

2.) Super insta-fast constructions. I see someone already posted load-then-ai-instantly-finishes-wonder bug, but not only that, too many times I see AI finishes several-queued buildings/troops in just one turn.

Probably this is the reason that AI usually has 6x to 20x of research done even if I had twice more cities than he has. Compared to cities they have, they progress way too fast, even if 'Expert' gives them so much gold. I am talking about epic setting where rushing a pioneer costs about 300 gold to do so. This has to be fixed, otherwise as soon as AI gets better enough to use global magics, playing anything beyond 'normal' difficulty would be as if I am playing a roguelike game.

3.) Not only monsters do not attack AI much in general, AI itself has hard time 'clearing' its area.

4.) pioneer AI uses is not one-time unit like player's. They do expire when building an outpost, but I always see their pioneer still alive after a city is built. This also leads super easy expansion.

5.) Not sure it is finally fixed, but AI should not get 2 free essences when a city is built. Due to I did not have Stealth for the recent Expert play, but when I played as Verga, too many times I saw AI built a city on tile without essence, and doh! two essence just appeared on that city from nowhere!

So, basically, -I am not sure about lower difficulties- AI has hp boost, better starting sov (they have free horse if you play any difficulty that states 'AI sov gets slightly better'), gold boost, insta-completed construction, better Stealth (since player's Stealth does not protect cities now, also it does not work on wildland monsters. For AI, both work well) and cheating on city tile (I keep want to say restricting where I can build cities is just cheap idea to try to prevent city spam, and in reality it does not work and only causes frustrations IMO).

I understand HP boost, better sov, more gold, and free essence slots. But Monster semi-immunity and insta-build needs to go, from ALL difficulties. Here is my reasoning.

1.) Monster semi-immunity really breaks immersion of this game. I worked hard to get rid monsters from my area, only to see AI having nearly no problem keeping their cities AND improvements (yes, it seems while my improvements keep getting invaded all the time, AI's improvements are all advanced and seems was never attacked despite it was right next to slag lair.) Not only fair, but it also makes 'Stealth' option near-useless for AI. (thus Tarth got a huge disadvantage with 2 bonus points wasted on them) Nerfing Stealth option while not fixing those AI's free, better Stealth ability makes no sense to me.

This really should be exclusive to Tarth or any faction with Stealth ability only, not all factions, on any difficulty.

2.) And yes, insta-done-construction bug.... Imagine when AI can use global magic, and/or able to recruit Ogre/Dragons.... Already bringing Dragons when my sov is barely level 6... such sweet dreams. Not to mention this bug seems unstable and unpredictable, I'd say they shouldn't allow to do it in the first place.

At last but not least, a very big thanks for nerfing Beastlord again despite it was nerfed a while ago. With recent changes on starting position, I see a option to play as Beastlord is now near-impossible for any high difficulties. I just don't like nerfing things here and there.... and we have already VERY few limited option to play harder difficulties already.

Please, at least bring back a way to use monster lairs (like we could for Naga and Igni during beta 3 or earlier) for Beastlord. And maybe allow Beastlord to tame Elemental as well (tho it may be non-sense, and it should be belong to Summoner.)

Now, I will play Beastlord again, but this time I will get Stealth+Master Scout and I will lower the difficulty (Challenging) see if AI behavior changes.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2411

Quoting Tuidjy,

reply 24

Quoting Frogboy, reply 23The monsters attack the AI just as much as humans. It's a placebo effect when players think they are attacking the other way.

I am willing to accept that this is literally true, even in 1.00.

But in 1.00, on challenging, I have seen a particular monster army attack a player army rather than an AI army 7 times out of 7. The monsters could attack both, and the player army was a match for them. The AI army had no chance.

On a separate occasion, in the same experiment, with two AI armies and one player army in range, monsters chose to attack the player 8 times out of 10, while only one of the AI armies got attacked, and only 3 times. I have the saves for both turns, and I have written a lot on the subject here.

These probabilities make me think that if the monsters treats players and AI the same way, there is definitely some logic that it uses that is not self-evident, i.e. that makes them attack a stronger army instead of a defenseless one.

(And if I am mistaken, it's not placebo, it's selective perception, also known as perception bias)

Ultimately, in order for a monster to pick on a particular player, it has to be looking at that variable. It doesn't. Monsters, when determining who to attack, do not look at whether it's a local player (human) or an AI player. IF it has no destination, then IF difficulty level is >=13 (above challenging) then it will do a second check to see if it's local.

In the years I've been doing AI, I've always seen people assume the AI is "cheating" when things don't go their way. In Multiplayer games, you see this all the time too where they will say the other guy was hacking the game or cheating or cheesing or something. It's human nature.

There are certainly *bugs* in 1.0 (the 12.5 being rounded to 13 for rush building discounts on challenging for instance) in 1.0 and the main game not checking to make sure the tile to found a city on is valid (though I've not seen this personally but I take your word for it). But I've done everything I can do to make sure the monsters attack the AI just as much including change the entire movement system to ensure that the monsters get to move before AI players.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 26

IF it has no destination, then IF difficulty level is >=13 (above challenging) then it will do a second check to see if it's local.

Well, this explains very well what I have been seeing. The monsters ignored the defenseless AI army next to them because they were already chasing my army.

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parrottmath

Join Date 03/2008

+206

Quoting Tuidjy,

reply 27

Quoting Frogboy, reply 26IF it has no destination, then IF difficulty level is >=13 (above challenging) then it will do a second check to see if it's local.

Well, this explains very well what I have been seeing. The monsters ignored the defenseless AI army next to them because they were already chasing my army.

Which may be the reason for the mis-perceptions that are occuring.

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kwm1800

Join Date 03/2008

+26

Quoting Frogboy,

reply 23

I'm going to quit arguing this because there is no way to change the perception of this: The monsters attack the AI just as much as humans. It's a placebo effect when players think they are attacking the other way.

Only at difficulty levels above challenging (on world difficulty) do monsters start to look at the players differently. But on challenging or less, it's a random roll without knowing who it's going after.

If people want to say the monsters aren't giving the AI a hard time, there's nothing I can do to convince them otherwise. But it's not happening. I've spent enough time on this particular issue to determine that it's all perception and not reality. In a typical game, the AI loses a lot more units (pioneers especially) to monsters than a typical human will (mostly because humans are more careful).

I have hard time accepting this, since it's really, really are to see, like, monsters trying to destroy at least unguarded AI outposts, at once.

Too many times I see their outposts unharmed among hordes of monsters. When I capture one of the outposts, guess what, instantly destroyed in very next turn.

Now I just abuse this behavior. I just keep capturing the cities and outposts, and conventionally monsters immediately destroy the cities I captured, completely cripple AIs. This is probably one of few ways to go against superior forces built by harder AIs.

I never played this game below challenging, mostly playing this on Expert mode. I do understand why AI needs cheating, but this semi-immunity from monster aggression, a.k.a you mentioned as "look at the players differently", needs to be gone from all difficulties. Even further boost HP or gold income if you like, but this artificial advantage really breaks the game theme as whole: Elemental is all about conquering the world first before we wage on war on each other; AI just skips the first part, completely breaking immersion.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2411

Quoting wnmnkh,

reply 30

Quoting Frogboy, reply 23I'm going to quit arguing this because there is no way to change the perception of this: The monsters attack the AI just as much as humans. It's a placebo effect when players think they are attacking the other way.

Only at difficulty levels above challenging (on world difficulty) do monsters start to look at the players differently. But on challenging or less, it's a random roll without knowing who it's going after.

If people want to say the monsters aren't giving the AI a hard time, there's nothing I can do to convince them otherwise. But it's not happening. I've spent enough time on this particular issue to determine that it's all perception and not reality. In a typical game, the AI loses a lot more units (pioneers especially) to monsters than a typical human will (mostly because humans are more careful).

I have hard time accepting this, since it's really, really are to see, like, monsters trying to destroy at least unguarded AI outposts, at once.

Too many times I see their outposts unharmed among hordes of monsters. When I capture one of the outposts, guess what, instantly destroyed in very next turn.

Now I just abuse this behavior. I just keep capturing the cities and outposts, and conventionally monsters immediately destroy the cities I captured, completely cripple AIs. This is probably one of few ways to go against superior forces built by harder AIs.

I never played this game below challenging, mostly playing this on Expert mode. I do understand why AI needs cheating, but this semi-immunity from monster aggression, a.k.a you mentioned as "look at the players differently", needs to be gone from all difficulties. Even further boost HP or gold income if you like, but this artificial advantage really breaks the game theme as whole: Elemental is all about conquering the world first before we wage on war on each other; AI just skips the first part, completely breaking immersion.

I'm not sure what you want me to say. It is what it is.

[spoilers]

The monster AI doesn't even look at outposts (yours or theirs). It doesn't explicitly target them. The only time it'll destroy an outpost or a mine is when it fails to find something to attack and looks to a random destination and then it has a chance of caring whether the tile is empty or not. But that's the only parameter -- empty tile or not caring whether the tile is empty or not.

Even at the hardest difficulty, the monsters don't care about outposts or resources of any player.

I realize when your stuff gets killed it can feel like the whole world is against you. But the monster rules really aren't that complex.

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kwm1800

Join Date 03/2008

+26

Quoting Frogboy,

reply 31

I'm not sure what you want me to say. It is what it is.

The monster AI doesn't even look at outposts (yours or theirs). It doesn't explicitly target them. The only time it'll destroy an outpost or a mine is when it fails to find something to attack and looks to a random destination and then it has a chance of caring whether the tile is empty or not. But that's the only parameter -- empty tile or not caring whether the tile is empty or not.

Even at the hardest difficulty, the monsters don't care about outposts or resources of any player.

I realize when your stuff gets killed it can feel like the whole world is against you. But the monster rules really aren't that complex.

That explains very well. So this is what actually happening...

1. I capture an outpost. going into visibility of monsters.

2. Monster aggression triggers, and everyone is going to get me like as if I touched a hornet nest with fire.

3. While they are moving to completely crush my tiny army with massive HP and monstrous damage, they 'accidently' crumble on that poor outpost.

I don't know. I know you do not want to answer my question regarding monster behavior on harder difficulties not fitting well into Elemental's theme, but this is too abusive. 5-turn limit on razing cities is already useless if you know what are you doing, and I am sure to see someone will bring some great ideas to exploit this further soon enough.

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Ok then i have a question: how moster behaviour is determined against cities and improvements ? I had a game where around AI city was packed 2 slags army. It was wandering around it for 150 turns and guess what, they never tried to atack that city. And it was enough of me to put outpost later near that city area, they suddenly started to wander closser and closser, i was amazed of such hiden discrimination Maybe its a coincidence, but hello, they were in that location for 2/3 of the whole game, what chance was they wont ever try to hit that city, two slags you know could easily try it out with their power.

I do agree that monsters atack AI units, saw it many times, but improvements ? never. So if AI gets his feet and puts there city/outpost, its for eternity or till i will come To many times i saw lvl 3 altars and 4 packs of monsters peasfully wandering around them in AI's outposts and its more like rule, than an exception.

By the way you can make monsters insta agressive, i mean why to leave it for a chance ? If they see AI/human object they just destroy it. I think it will serve better for motivation to secure land first and only then move forward. this will stop cities spam effectively, because you will need time and power to get rid of all monsters around you first. It would also stop all those pressumtions on AI and human player differenciation.

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parrottmath

Join Date 03/2008

+206

I know. I settled a city next to some rock spider lair and they traveled 20-30 tiles away to destroy the AI city (poor magnar). My plan worked perfectly.

Monsters should act like animals and each tile really does represent a huge amount area that most monsters shouldn't be that agressive beyond their lair. If you add this insta-aggressiveness then stealth trait becomes a rather HUGE bonus (it's big now, but randomness keeps things a little more fair wiht that bonus).

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In my last game I took over a Pariden city with a Drake army wandering right next to it... those cheaters, right? This would usually be when people claim the Drake army attacks and raze the city right? Well, that's what I figured would happen, so I garrison my attacking army to use the local militia as fodder (my army isn't strong enough to take it on)...

...

22 turns later... The Drake army is still wandering around the city like it doesn't exist.

/facepalm.

I had to bring in reinforcements to hunt it.

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Quoting Kalin,

reply 35

22 turns later... The Drake army is still wandering around the city like it doesn't exist.

/facepalm.
I had to bring in reinforcements to hunt it.

Monsters vastly overestimate the strength of garrisons. I had the same thing happen in my 'experiment'. As soon as I moved the defenders out, the monsters headed back towards the city.

This may actually be at the root of people's perception that the AI is getting a free pass. The AI garrisons its cities. The defenders would not be any hindrance to the monster army, but the monster overestimates them, and does not attack.

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@ Frogboy:
The monsters ignoring outposts and recources and armies right under their nose may be the root cause of the player anger (them being targeted by what players perceive is their stuff while the AI gets a free pass thanks to a bit of an unlucky rng...)

Maybe add some variable that lets monsters check at start of their move if something tasty is very near (like 1 spot away right under their nose) no matter if player or AI and let them eat it before continuing to hunt an original target far away... ?
That should include resources and outposts (good Idea to not have it downright include cities. Outposts are worth a try though. Imo being the easy targets that they are. Also for protecting them there is an outpost-upgrade after all isn't there?)

Should actually make the AI and players alike going close to monsters getting eaten more visible so at least players realize that the love is handed out equally? (Or less equally in higher difficulties but still...)

Needn't be true for all monsters but drakes and dragons and the like should enjoy the meaty cuisine...

Whould of course take a bit more caution in turn for the AI to move right around monsters...

If this seems to dangerous to release to a broader public maybe release it as a private build to willing test subjects...

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For an example of a city founded in a swamp, here is my save. Relias moved a champion + pioneer next to my monument and set up Keeran's Hold. Their first building, a workshop, was also built in a swamp tile since they had to get the diagonal before a lumber yard could be constructed. Obviously the tiles are now plains if the city is razed, but note the two unbuilt swamp tiles bordering the city center as well as the swamp tiles orthogonal to the river along nearly its entire length.

https://www.filesanywhere.com/fs/v.aspx?v=8a72638858646dbba968

Just to add to the general hubbub about monster AI note the city of Tan-Ta-Kreet (a level 4 city with every building!) guarded by a Storm Dragon. I had to chunnel through the mountains to reach it without setting him off. But as you can see he picked up on my sov on departure and will chase him down at the end of turn. How did the Gilden manage to get that city to level 4 with a dragon inhabiting it's tiny chokepoint? It does make you wonder.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 23

Frogboy,

Whether or not the AI is treated differently or not, the fact that players perceive it this way is an issue. The randomness you say exists is probably part of the issue. If players could see the AI acting in a consistent manner IE it always attack a hero that lands next to it, always go for the nearest city etc. Then this wouldn't be an issue. However the randomness in its actions is and will continue to make the players think that it's weighted to attack the player more.

Consistency should be the word here, not randomness if you want some players to not feel they are being targeted in a different way than the AI.

You can scream off the rooftops that it is fair and balanced, but it doesn't matter if the player feels he's being cheated in some way consistently. Players who feel like they are being cheated consistently aren't likely to be having fun, have a positive opinion of the game or suggest it to friends.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 26

To go completely off topic, I remember a game of starcraft 2, where I had a really good protoss building strategy, and some guy tried to cheese me with a barracks rush, except I had out-produced him and just ate up his barracks. He immediately called me a hacker and left Ooooh the good times, but kind of sets it in perspective from my point of view.

That said, there are still a lot of bugs, sometimes I really want to go look at the monsters coding and try and meddle with it myself (except I can't code).

I think there is a fault with the current monsters, and I think it lies in what the monsters can actually see, and not how they pick they're targets.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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Quoting Fistalis,

reply 39

Frogboy,

Whether or not the AI is treated differently or not, the fact that players perceive it this way is an issue. The randomness you say exists is probably part of the issue. If players could see the AI acting in a consistent manner IE it always attack a hero that lands next to it, always go for the nearest city etc. Then this wouldn't be an issue. However the randomness in its actions is and will continue to make the players think that it's weighted to attack the player more.

Consistency should be the word here, not randomness if you want some players to not feel they are being targeted in a different way than the AI.

You can scream off the rooftops that it is fair and balanced, but it doesn't matter if the player feels he's being cheated in some way consistently. Players who feel like they are being cheated consistently aren't likely to be having fun, have a positive opinion of the game or suggest it to friends.

Ps. very intelligent post, I have always hoped the monster AI would have a setting that removed the randomness...

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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