I don't want to feel like I'm cheating when I make a custom Sovereign/Race

well many sov has magic pretty useless for their role

magnar could play without shadow easily, like proci without water , the fighers dont need ether magic schools etc etc

tbh i would remove them because i dont like so much non necessary magic, or just make them free for base sovs

I mean no disrespect, but why not simply put together the race you want, with abilities you feel are balanced, and leave others who feel otherwise to build the races in as unbalanced or balanced a fashion as they desire?

You don't think there's inherent value in a balanced game, with balanced factions to the extent that it's possible to do? Right now from a pure gameplay perspective, the Stock races have little appeal outside of Lore, because you can effortlessly make a better one.

Custom Sovereign creation shouldn't be about making a better Race in every case, but a different one. I'd just like to see something put in place to make sure the Stock races always had some value to play over a custom race, and that people didn't automatically assume playing through the game as a custom Sov was a lesser achievement. Because, currently, it is. 

Otherwise, from a gameplay perspective, you really might as well get rid of the Stock factions altogether, and just let people make their own, if the Stock races are going to be an inferior option every time.

To an extent, this was the way it was in the Gal Civ 2 games. Stock races sometimes had abilities and bonuses greater than what could be assembled in the custom race maker. The balance was, with a custom race you had complete control over what you put where, which is a big advantage.

Again, I don't mean this as an excuse not to balance the individual abilities amongst themselves, which I also hope happens to the degree it is possible to do.

Do all the sovs make full use of their skill points now? How about the races, do they use all their points? I hope Derek and Brad balance all these before release too but I'm not sure they'll have enough time now - it's only a matter of weeks before release to fix bugs, polish and balance.

Currently I'm just using the lore sovs precisely because I feel a custom one would be too OP - I guess I could up my difficulty setting to compensate

There should be balanced factions in my opinion, but I don't think a developer necessarily gains anything from preventing players from adjusting difficulty to their own liking--and that includes creating unbalanced factions.  You buy the game, in essence.  It's yours.  How you play it is entirely up to you.  I would prefer a balanced game, and you would, but I don't honestly see what value lies in keeping others from playing how they want to.

Mind, I have no objection to some sort of system that declares a numerical value upon losing or winning, based in part upon the difficulty of one's game.  (MOO II had something like this, as I recall.)  So that, for example, playing with an over-balanced faction would give you a lower rating, while playing with an underbalanced one would give you a higher rating.  Just my two cents.

@Glazunov1

You seem to think I'm arguing against custom factions. Im not. I want to use them. I like the functionality. I like experimenting with interesting synergies.

Im not looking to suppress that ability in any way. I'm looking to bolster the gameplay value of choosing a stock race. 

Otherwise, like I said, you might as well get rid of stock races if they're going to be the  inferior choice every time, compared to something you could make, and just let players make their own races.  It would certainly save  time over trying to balance 8 pointless races against each other, rather than focusing all efforts on balancing the individual abilities available in the  Race/Sovereign creator.

How about giving standard Sovs an extra stat point?  So if they are currently using 7 points plus one negative trait (for a total of 6 points), why not ditch the negative trait and give them 7 full points?  I think this would give them an edge without making them OP.  There's a fine line between making the standard factions powerful enough and making them too powerful.  I think giving each standard Sov an extra stat point would be a good workable solution.

I was thinking about 2 extra points, but same idea. It would at least force players to pick a weakness for a custom race in order to get the same number of points. There's only so balanced you can really make it, but at least that would give Stock races a theoretical value over a custom one.

Having *more* abilities isn't nearly as important as having the *right* abilities. The Power to pick the right abilities can't be underestimated.

The whole build sovereign part of the game needs a bit of work, it appears to be basically the same as when first created. For example:

- When creating a custom sovereign you have to pick a faction but can't see what the faction/race bonuses are.

- When creating a custom faction you have to pick a race but can't see what the race bonuses are.

- If you pick the ability which gives free recruiting of champions and combine it with the penalty that gives you 50% extra cost to recruit champions and +1 attack then it costs you no picks but you gain +1 attack and I think end up recruiting champions at half price (can't be completely sure about that part, might end up at normal price).

- If, for example, you were foolish enough to create a custom sovereign called Test with no real abilities then you can't delete them and can end up playing against them (which sucks, I want my opponents to be a challenge). Not saying I was that foolish of course .

I hope Stardock are going to come back and fix all this but I presume they have regarded improving the core gameplay as more important.

That's not actually true, anymore. You can delete a custom sovereign from the faction selection menu by right clicking on their portrait. 

And you can also select your opponents prior to map generation.

I agree with the lack of information on what each race actually provides.  There needs to be a little window that provides a line or two of text of what the specific abilities are.

I also agree on the recruiting and scarred abilities - at worst it gives you +1 to attack - as best it provides you 1/2 price of recruiting and +1 attack.  If one is picked then the other should be grayed out so the system cannot be worked.

Yes, it would be very good if faction-based traits could be made mutually exclusive, and for Stardock to set it up so Natural Leader and Cruel can't both be picked by the one sovereign.  (It is already possible to ban certain sov traits if another one is selected.)

The only responsibility Stardock has to me is making sure the core factions are balanced.

Anything custom regarding balance is up to the player- I do think we need more factions, but I know that won't make it into the game, so I'll save my complaining on that for the expansion.

I couldn't agree more. They devs need to make sure that all faction abilities are somewhat balanced in comparison to each other. Right now there are still a few that are obviously UP. Blood traits also need balanced as well. All traits need to be a least somewhat useful. Another problem is weaknesses which are currently easy to exploit. Weaknesses need to be stronger then strengths because players will always find ways to work around them. It is not enough to simply make factions as a whole balanced against each other. If custom faction design is going to be that broken they should simply remove the editor and make people use the xml.

Having an unbalanced faction editor prevents players from playing how they want. Your argument could be applied to the default races. Why not have a few that are totally unbalanced so people can play that way? There is a difficulty setting, use it. You can also cheat and use xml to create cheap factions if you want.

With respect, I'm not sure I understand your comment.  Players have the ability to change the difficulty level in several respects right now, just as you state.  Do you mean they shouldn't have one more?  And why is giving people the ability to create unbalanced or balanced factions by trait, in order to help play how they want, a way of preventing them from being able to play how they want?  I'm pretty slow at the moment after a bad night's rest, so I can't understand this argument.  Please, explain this to me.

EDIT: "There is a difficulty setting, use it."  Just for clarity's sake, I play the game on Hard or Expert, with plenty of opponents, so I wouldn't use such an editor.  I just don't understand refusing its easy availability to others.  So let's not make this a personal issue, when it isn't.  Thanks.

Stopped using custom factions long ago, because of reasons stated in OP. You need (allot of) discipline to not make a ridiculously OP faction with no weaknesses. I loved the way it was in Gal Civ 2, why not use the same system in FE? Give default factions unique abilities that can't be put on custom races.

Also balance the factions please...Krax is ridiculous, Tarth OP, Altar OP, Magnar almost OP; Gilden are balanced, Pariden is "meh", Trogs are bad, Resoln is useless. It's only 8 factions so it shouldn't be too hard...or make everything OP (like in FFH) so it all balances out, either way works out for me.

I don't like the idea about unique abilities for premade factions, I would much rather see them made "properly". Although meaby with 20% more points or something (Hard with only 2 points... Want the Faction creator from MOO2)

Would be very nice to see some balance in the faction creator perks though, could make everything more interesting allready. I think they should add 1 more ability to each faction, (3 picks) and balance out all the abilities.

Another thing they could do was give the premade factions a free starting research.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Since magic disiplines cost more now in .951, is this disscussion kinda moot now? Last night while trying to get my own magic based faction back, i was always short a point. Personally, i always use custom characters if possible, even if just for taste or cosmetics. 

Not moot, mostly about factions I bet too though (Custom Factions).

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

OIC, my mistake.  though i have to disagree as you only get 2 default points to spend on you custom faction.  i think us humans are better at exploiting our faction strengths then the ai at this point but hopefully that will change closer to release.  a neat idea for an opponent might be a "random" faction choice.  what if the ai could throw together a faction and sov based on a random goal for the victory condition (magic, warfare or diplomatic) and then choose faction and sov characteristics to support and exploit that.  it would take an extended loading time, but i would be interested to see if it could come up with some unique and challenging opponents.

Loading time won't be too bad
I saw the AI in "Master of Orion 2", they randomly got more "picks" (Racial bonuses) on the hard difficulties.
As of right now i'd love to see balance in the choices.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Not only balance, but trait placement needs some refinement. It is bad to have things like natural leader and warlord for Sovs. That kind of stuff belongs in the faction traits. For one thing traits for Sovs should be making the Sov powerful, not the entire nation. The thing the devs really need to look at is that surrenders are seriously upsetting the balance as you get the Sov's traits as a bonus on your empire. So taking Procipinee's surrender increases build time by 25%. That is a serious problem. It would be rather easy and quick to separate what is a faction bonus and what is a Sov bonus. Hope we see some of that in beta 5.

The more I play, the more I also dislike the unique abilities the factions seem to have.

• Paridan's Scrying Pools: Every faction should have these. Other factions should simply be getting them later and with less benefit than Paradin.
• Magnar's Population: Every faction should gain some population for humanoid captures. Magnar should just gain more.
• Gilden: Every faction already gets some special equipment....every faction definately has access to equipment. This one is done properly.
• Resolin: Really neat to get FREE troops though shards. Every faction should have this...maybe only with the elements that they are trained in. Resolin should get them more often or have stronger types.
• Tarth: The advanced scout? While every faction has scouts and hense, I think this one is done properly....who wants scouts? Scouts need more purpose in the game. The bows are a good addition though, a little overpowered...but that's in the balacing.
• Altar's Henchmen: Every faction should have access to hirinng henchmen. Altar should just have more of and better ones.
• Trogs lack of ranged weapons: Umm...okay. I will say that they're stonger in melee, so this one is done properly too.
• Krax's diplomacy: Every faction can hire heros. Krax can simply hire from both sides. This one is done properly...but too powerful in its current state since heros are the stongest forces in this game.

Anyways, that's how I'm seeing it the more I play through it...

OP has a point. My 9-year old boy fell in love with FE after his sister bought the beta; granted, he is an avid Civ5 player, but still... he managed to create a custom sov that even in the hands of the AI is pretty much unbeatable. He turns 9 this next Sunday... if he is able to create such a "monster" within the game rules, then something is out of balance. Perhaps the plus/minus system of the traits...

Totally agreed, sad to say though, but I would really like all the faction stuff in the faction editor, and the starting  scroll support interface for more than 4 abilities.

Can't say I agree with you firefly, thats why it is fun playing a certain faction, each ability seems really really nice, should not be mixed into a big pool of blah.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej