Making Frostflare a Happier Sinner

from Sins Forums

After tooling around with Rebellion (and getting my first EVER minidumps!), I'd like to say that I'm genuinely impressed with the game, both in whole and in part.

That said, I've noticed that a couple of the dominant balance issues around here are as follows:

  1. Orkulus Rex
  2. The uselessness of the Kol, the Radiance, and the Revelation
  3. Corvettes?
  4. A few other odds and ends

I feel the need to speak out on these issues and consolidate worthwhile arguments in one place. If I notice a sufficiently strong argument against any of my suggestions, I will strike them from the list; suggestions will be in red.

DISCLAIMER: Mecha-Lenin is free to participate in this thread; I don't consider him a troll. Rather, I see him as someone who has no tolerance for fools. His input is welcome. *ducks for cover*

My suggestions are as follows:

  1. Fix known bugs and mini-dumps. :grin:
  2. Improve fighter acceleration, deceleration, and turn rate, so they can make an attack pass, come around, and attack again more quickly (if necessary, reduce weapon cooldown time so they can fire more often if they need to)
  3. Attach Point Defense Systems to all capital ships; damage values identical to flak frigates at level 1 (values double by level 10):
    1. Four banks on Carriers and Dreadnoughts (Carriers get a fighter screen, so they don't need the turrets; Dreadnoughts have an additional purpose that other capital ships don't have, so they don't get a fighter screen)
    2. Six banks on Battlecruisers (one battlecruiser = 1.5 flak frigates at level 1)
    3. Eight banks on Battleships (one battleship = 2 flak frigates at level 1)
  4. Buff the Kol:
    1. In addition to its current damage, Flak Burst shells are now loaded with chaff, reducing strike craft accuracy by 4/8/12/16% for [x] seconds; stacks twice (thanks, Volt); additional hits refresh; range increased from 3000/3380/3760/4140 to 3700/4080/4460/4840
    2. Adaptive Forcefield now passive; reduces damage by 10/15/20/25% and increases Phase Missile block by 15/21/27/33%
    3. Gauss Rail Gun no longer slows the target; instead:
      1. Ignores shield mitigation (thanks, Volt)
      2. Passive regeneration disabled (acts as an antimatter reducing ability and shield/hull DoT) for 10/20/30/40 seconds
  5. Telekinetic Push range increased from 4200 to 5000
  6. Buff the Radiance:
    1. Now hosts squadrons like a battlecruiser (squadrons at levels 1, 5, and 9) because it lacks a fleet-defense anti-strikecraft ability (this honor goes to Telekinetic Push) -- neither Volt nor Goa are a fan of this, and I trust them implicitly
    2. Energy-Absorptive Armor: no longer increases base armor; now does either one or both of the following (thereby solving the problem of the Radiance's lack of offensive power AND its lack of durability):
      1. Increases damage output by 5/10/15/20% per attack received, up to a maximum of 50/100/150/200% bonus damage; lasts for 30 seconds; each hit refreshes
      2. Reduces incoming damage by 5% per attack received, up to a maximum of 30/45/60/75%; lasts for 30 seconds; each hit refreshes
  7. Buff the Revelation:
    1. Clairvoyance now reveals all mines in the target system for the duration
    2. Guidance now provides the following bonus to the Revelation and all friendly units in range (I'm on the fence as to whether or not it needs to be active or passive, so I've listed both active and passive suggestions; but the reduction to ability cooldowns has got to go, regardless):
      • If passive, increases bombardment damage (or cooldown) by 10/20/30/40%; if active, increases bombing damage by 40% for 15/25/35/45 seconds
  8. Buff the Antorak Marauder:
    1. Phase Out Hull: damage/healing scales (100/200/300/400)
    2. Distort Gravity:
      1. Range increased from 5000 to 7000 (just short of Targeting Uplink [8000])
      2. Phase Jump Departure Range becomes Phase Jump Chargeup Rate (because you're in bad shape if the ability ends before you jump)
    3. Subversion: Before you jump on me for my suggestion here, note that Embargo does basically the same thing at max level AND gives you money; my suggestion for Subversion increases the DURATION of an effect that Embargo builds up to as it levels
      1. Reduces ship build rate by 100%
      2. Reduces structure build rate by 100%
      3. Reduces planet upgrade rate by 100%
      4. Reduces population growth rate by 100%
      5. Reduces planet health restoration rate by 100%
      6. Duration: 60/120/180/240 (ends if Marauder leaves the system)
  9. Nerf Starbase Mobilization in such a way that the following conditions no longer apply:
    • Can be constructed in the rear, fully upgraded, and then sent straight to the front, without any ability to stop it
    • Enemy units cannot escape from it without being significantly weakened (owing to Jump Destabilization -- although here, I feel the antimatter loss is far more severe than the health loss)
    • Can be spammed by players who pour money into their economy
      • Optimal solution appears to be a temporary debuff when it enters a system [reducing damage and preventing Phase Destabilization] and an overall increase to fleet upkeep when Starbase Mobilization is researched
  10. Nerf the Corsev (though I have no idea how)
  11. Buff the Rankulas (if anyone has ever played Warcraft III, this capital ship is basically the equivalent of the Beastmaster hero, so it should be viable).
  12. Break the link between Pulse Gun research and Pulse Beam research (after all, there is no link between Pulse Lasers and Beams in the TEC tree)

Discuss.

25,677 views 25 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

Fix known bugs and mini-dumps.
Improve fighter acceleration, deceleration, and turn rate, so they can make an attack pass, come around, and attack again more quickly (if necessary, reduce weapon cooldown time so they can fire more often if they need to)  Idk how I feel  about this yet.
Attach Point Defense Systems to all capital ships; damage values identical to flak frigates at level 1 (values double by level 10):

Four banks on Carriers and Dreadnoughts (Carriers get a fighter screen, Dreadnoughts have a dual purpose that other capital ships don't have)
Six banks on Battlecruisers (one battlecruiser = 1.5 flak frigates at level 1)
Eight banks on Battleships (one battleship = 2 flak frigates at level 1)

I disagree with adding more banks like that.

Buff the Kol:

In addition to its current damage, Flak Burst shells are now loaded with chaff, reducing strike craft accuracy by 4/8/12/16% for [x] seconds; stacks twice; additional hits refresh; range increased from 3000/3380/3760/4140 to 3700/4080/4460/4840  I was the one who originally suggested this, so I'm not overly opposed  ;P  It may well not be needed with the other buffs though.
Adaptive Forcefield now passive; reduces damage by 10%/17%/22%/27% and increases Phase Missile block by 17%/30%/40%/52% (amounts derived by averaging the ratio of uptime to downtime of existing Adaptive Forcefield values)  AFF needs to get values nerfed, not just averaged.  Remember, it no longer has AM which was the main concern before.
Gauss Rail Gun no longer slows the target; instead:

Ignores shield mitigation I don't like this and even if I did, it isn't possible currently.
Passive regeneration disabled (acts as an antimatter reducing ability and shield/hull DoT) for 30 seconds  In line with what I've suggested before, but as with before, I suggested 10/20/30/40 because it gives the player more incentive to upgrade it.

Telekinetic Push range increased from 4200 to 5000  I can't remember if I ever stuck this in RR or not.  I meant to though...
Buff the Radiance:

Now hosts squadrons like a battlecruiser (squadrons at levels 1, 5, and 9) because it lacks a fleet-defense anti-strikecraft ability (this honor goes to Telekinetic Push)  No.
Energy-Absorptive Armor: no longer increases base armor; now does either one or both of the following (thereby solving the problem of the Radiance's lack of offensive power AND its lack of durability):

Increases damage output by 5/10/15/20% per attack received, up to a maximum of 50/100/150/200% bonus damage; lasts for 30 seconds; each hit refreshes
Reduces incoming damage by 5% per attack received, up to a maximum of 30/45/60/75%; lasts for 30 seconds; each hit refreshes

Very interesting, but really it sounds just like Desperation on steroids...


Buff the Revelation:

Clairvoyance now reveals all mines in the target system for the duration Not what I'd prefer, but it is better than nothing.
Guidance now provides one or both of the following bonuses to the Revelation and all friendly units in range (I'm on the fence as to whether or not it needs to be active or passive, so I've listed both active and passive suggestions; but the reduction to ability cooldowns has got to go, regardless):

If passive, reduces antimatter costs by 10/20/30/40%; if active, reduces antimatter costs by 40% for 15/25/35/45 seconds  Now it sounds like Flux Field.  I'd rather it do something different.  Honestly, were it not for the amount of work involved, I think making it a remote Overcharge as Zombie is currently implementing for SotF may be the best way to go.
If passive, increases bombardment damage by 10/20/30/40%; if active, increases bombing damage by 40% for 15/25/35/45 seconds  Maybe bombing cooldown.  This is probably what'll end up in RR unless I find the time to implement the aforementioned (or Zombie is nice and lets me copy).

Buff the Antorak Marauder:

Phase Out Hull: damage/healing scales (100/200/300/400)  I think my original suggestion was 200/400/600 but then the devs only did 200.  I've honestly never been satisfied with this idea of heal/damage on this ability.  I prefer what I have RR now as it fits the Vasari more and is more useful IMO.
Distort Gravity:

Range increased from 5000 to 7000 (just short of Targeting Uplink [8000])  Okay I suppose.  Kinda apathetic as this ability is already quite good but I know why you would do that.
Phase Jump Departure Range becomes Phase Jump Chargeup Rate (because you're in bad shape if the ability ends before you jump)  Actually it might end if the Antorak jumps first.  I think that is the main issue.

Subversion: Before you jump on me for my suggestion here, note that Embargo does basically the same thing at max level AND gives you money; my suggestion for Subversion increases the DURATION of an effect that Embargo builds up to as it levels

Reduces ship build rate by 100%
Reduces structure build rate by 100%
Reduces planet upgrade rate by 100%
Reduces population growth rate by 100%
Reduces planet health restoration rate by 100%
Duration: 60/120/180/240 (ends if Marauder leaves the system)

I've come up with a few things like periodic damage to structures and various debuffs to the planet, but what I eventually settled on in RR:R was a planetary AoE where it doesn't just debuff the planet you are currently at.  It debuffs the neighbors as well, making it more effective for deep strikes and combos very nicely with my change to POH.

Nerf Starbase Mobilization in such a way that the following conditions no longer apply:

Can be constructed in the rear, fully upgraded, and then sent straight to the front, without any ability to stop it
Enemy units cannot escape from it without being significantly weakened (owing to Jump Destabilization -- although here, I feel the antimatter loss is far more severe than the health loss)
Can be spammed by players who pour money into their economy

The first is easily solved and is something I'm working on now.  I got it to work today where Stabilize Phase Space would allow the Orky to temporarily jump, but I then realized that I'd accidentally made it work even at level 1 POH, so I need to fix that.  Will probably happen tomorrow.

The second is more of an issue.  I myself am vehemently opposed to making Orkies take up fleet supply.  Quite frankly what I would be okay with however would be if upgrading them to have phase drives made them drain, say 10 credits/second untaxed per jumping Orky, meaning that even an eco player would have them in limited supply especially if they fleeted up.  For the record, the 10Cr/s was an arbitrary one.  It can be adjusted as needed.

Nerf the Corsev (though I have no idea how)  See RR for my method.
Buff the Rankulas (if anyone has ever played Warcraft III, this capital ship is basically the equivalent of the Beastmaster hero, so it should be viable).  I agree but don't know how because it is really powerful early-game.

Break the link between Pulse Gun research and Pulse Beam research (after all, there is no link between Pulse Lasers and Beams in the TEC tree)  Pulse Guns and Pulse Beams may both be particle weapons where one is just a sustained beam whereas the other is a projectile.  Beams for the TEC and Advent are presumably particle beams which clearly doesn't overlap with laser tech.

Discuss.

End of quote

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

@Volt:

Thank you for your input.

I have only one disagreement with you: 'twas I who came up with a Flak Burst debuff to prevent alpha strikes; it was you who suggested making it a smaller, stacking debuff. I should have mentioned that. =)

I'll note the following changes in the OP:

  • Nerf needed for Adaptive Forcefield values
  • Good call on the GRG incentive! But why can't you give GRG a "WeaponIgnoresShieldsAdjustment+100%" effect in the current game engine?
  • I'll strike out the antimatter Flux Field suggestion =)

I'm fine with Phase Out Hull as it is, because at low levels it's useful defensively (for breaking targeting on a given unit) and at high level it's useful offensively (for removing a given unit from the fight for a good long time).

I agree with what you're saying about Distort Gravity -- maybe it should be a fleet-wide buff?

I'm curious: why shouldn't the Radiance host strike craft as a battle cruiser? It's the only battleship without a dedicated anti-strike craft ability.

I, too, am vehemently opposed to making Orkulus Rex cost supply; I'm simply indicating that these are the problems with it (a Titan for no supply is but one of the issues it faces). I think it should be balanced by having a short debuff as it enters the system AND by having Starbase Mobilization impose upkeep.

On the subject of pulse weapons: I wrote the book on them. =) I'm okay with breaking the link.

Elemental: Reforged
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Frostflare, reply 2
I'm curious: why shouldn't the Radiance host strike craft as a battle cruiser? It's the only battleship without a dedicated anti-strike craft ability.
End of Frostflare's quote

It doesn't need one, not all the battleships need an antistrikecraft role. Heck I never get jam weapons on my Kortuls, Power Surge and disruptive strikes are just too good, so I don't see anything wrong with the Halcyon having the antistrikecraft ability.

Also the Radiance is not a useless cap, it is now the only Advent ship that can drain titan antimatter. This alone makes it very useful late game. But I agree its sort of a one hit wonder cap with detonate antimatter being the only really great thing about it. Its biggest flaw is Animosity. No capital ship save the Kortul has real damage tanking power, not even the Kol. Most of the time you want damage directed away from your capitalships. At the least it needs a say 15/30/45/60 damage reduction buff when using this ability to make it feasible, and perhaps some base stat increases to hull and shields would be good. Once animosity becomes decently useful I think energy absorption will be just fine too.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

Thanks for setting me straight, Goa -- it's nixed.

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Frostflare, reply 2
I have only one disagreement with you: 'twas I who came up with a Flak Burst debuff to prevent alpha strikes; it was you who suggested making it a smaller, stacking debuff. I should have mentioned that.
End of Frostflare's quote

Oops, you're right.  My bad.

As for the Radiance, I think it could be plenty powerful in other ways without that change which IMO doesn't fit the battleship style.

As for the "book," how did I not see that?

 

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

Animosity would be great as a weapon that hit an enemy ship and made it's own forces attack attack it as a hostile.

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

I tried that once.  It crashed the game.

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

I can think of a few times i've used animosity to save a titan or other cap ships, to buy time for a repulse or shield regen/subj heal

It works nice with advent fleet synergy and ofc the det am is really nice. AND cleansing brilliance is awesome if you can use it right.

 

I don't agree with most of your balances, apart from the kol, it is useless.. but what i like about it's useless tanky nature is, it's still a target and you smack it into your fleet, 2-3 and watch bombers die.. <3

 

Corvettes don't need changing, they work well as they are. Without micro they lose, unless you're playing a complete noob, in which case you could build anything and win. Corvettes are just quicker. My point there is, it's not a balance issue, even though it may seem it. It's a skill difference.

Most skilled MP games will see corvettes in the first 5-8 mins, from there you can either continues if you catch someone off guard, or you need to either anticipate a switch and diversify. Honestly though when i played Howthe? i didn't even go corvettes save my first 10 until i got a handle on his sentinels since most experienced players know corvs will be coming. Therefore countering with flak. Yes disciples/skirms/Cobs will beat a pure flak spam, which is why the game for the first time is forcing multiple fleet mixes.. Which i haven't seen forever. 

That alone makes me think the balancing on the whole is correct... jumping orkys... i dunno about this one. I can't seem to think of a viable solution unless you make it ultra late with a high research cost and upgrade cost, maybe an upgrade slot?

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

On the other hand the AL Titan already has that functionality.

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

Oh one balancing point, the AL titans L6 ability is balls.. just saying, it's not a permanent control over the planet and it basically costs you money.. so.. very situational.

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

Posts like this made me go on trolling rampage.

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

Might I suggest orange or yellow for a highlight color next time...the red is hard to see and made my retinas detach...

Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Mecha-Lenin, reply 12
Posts like this made me go on trolling rampage.
End of Mecha-Lenin's quote

It's hit or miss with me, here.  On the more mainstream games like Diablo, these threads are a smorgasbord. 

But why don't I play along with my thoughts on the issues:

1) I don't get the corvette thing, and maybe I'm just ignoring them for being marginally advantageous early on.  What worked before them still works, so I don't care what they do to them.  Also they're easy to click, not hard.  Nothing in this game is hard to click, I can't emphasize that enough.  With the same descriptors I've seen already expressed about the corvettes, we could argue out all but the most basic, featureless ships. 

2) With the Orkulus, I still have yet to be slammed by these.  But even when an online opponent tried it, I had a few anti-structural torpedo squads and it didn't last longer than any capital ship.  A stronger point to make here: I've had a lot worse happen to me since the release of Rebellion than one of those ponderous, expensive punching bags.  And I still think mines prove more annoying, those should unphase if they're not in an owned gravity well.  Or be a checkbox that we can leave off. 

3) Yeah the Kol... I don't know.  Just buff its numbers I guess.  I can take your word on the others; the only cappy I noticed being subpar this time around was the Kol, but it's not something I actively look for.  Graphically, the Kol looks like it's tough to punch through, maybe even just an armor buff would patch the difference.  I never build these anymore.

Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

I like your Antorak changes, but the durations could use some changing in my opinion. I agree with most of what you said but Clairvoyance should have a culture spread rate, maybe it could reveal mines as well. But that would mainly be for singleplayer and combating lower level players as almost no serious player uses mines in multiplayer.

 

Also here is an interesting idea, why not make guidance a embargo/subversion equivalent. Perhaps when used on an enemy planet it will disable culture generation on that planet and decrease antimatter regeneration on that planet maybe some other effects that fit the advent it would also help with the bombardment theme as well. Maybe weak, but it wouldn't be entirely useless it could help with culture pushes.

 

So it would be something like this.

Guidance: Shuts down all culture producing structures, antimatter regeneration rates of enemies, increases antimatter regeneration rates of allies, decreases ability cooldown rate in the gravity well..

  • Turns off culture producing structures
  • Lowers antimatter regeneration rate of enemies: 25%/50%/75%/100%
  • Increased regeneration rate of allies: 25%/50%/75%/100%
  • Decreases Ability cooldown rate of allies: 25%/30%/35%/40%

While we are at it increase the base damage of the Revelations bombardment damage to be better than the Marza and Vulkorus.

Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

Ah, that reminds me of the other thing I liked for Guidance as far as a rework would be a channel that slowly decreases max health of the planet.  Upon breaking the channel, the max health would begin creeping back up.  Maintaining the channel would drain a given amount of AM/s.

Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top

Eh, I don't think it needs another bombardment ability. My new guidance would fit the whole AoE capital ship dominance of the Advent. As getting rid of culture generation would help colonize the planet after it has been bombarded. While your new guidance would spread culture to help keep the planet under your control. All of it is just one synergetic combo that makes sense with bombarding a planet.

Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top

Getting culture at an assaulted planet shouldn't be an issue if you're Advent.

Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top

If that were true then the Deliverence Engine would be awesome. Yeah? It all depends culture is easily countered which is why you never see it effectively used in multiplayer except as a economical boost.

Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top

Once you capture neutralize the planet and there are no more enemy capitals in the well, your natural tendency to win in culture wars will win out.

Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top

Culture is no different for the Advent than it is for the other races, as long as they keep up with you in culture producing structures it doesn't matter.

Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 8
I tried that once.  It crashed the game.
End of Volt_Cruelerz's quote

That's a bummer.

 

Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 21
Culture is no different for the Advent than it is for the other races, as long as they keep up with you in culture producing structures it doesn't matter.
End of MayallCommunion's quote

That's why the Deliverance Engine needs to damage culture centers on each hit.

Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 21
Culture is no different for the Advent than it is for the other races, as long as they keep up with you in culture producing structures it doesn't matter.
End of MayallCommunion's quote

If you're AL, you basically get them free.  If AR, you get them cheaper.  In all cases, you also get starbases to spawn culture, even from neutrals as well as the DE.

Quoting Sinperium, reply 22
That's why the Deliverance Engine needs to damage culture centers on each hit.
End of Sinperium's quote

Or at least do something to them.

Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top

You're missing the point it doesn't matter how many ways advent can make culture, it doesn't matter where they spread this culture it doesn't matter how many different techs they have for culture. Using culture offensively is one of the most difficult things to pull off in the game.

 @Sin: I agree I just think it would be more practical for Guidance to be changed to what I purposed it would make it fit as the Advent siege capital ship.

Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top

My point wasn't that you can use culture as a weapon.  I know it sucks at that.  My point was that filling a planet that you've bombed to neutral with your own culture isn't hard if Advent.

Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top

My thoughts:

There is very little benefit gained by additional levels of AFF...due to Sins math, the actual damage reduction accomplished by your values of 10%/15%/20%/25% is 9.1%/13.0%/16.7%/20%...once you have level 1, you are only gaining ~3-4% more reduction with each upgrade...especially with the buffs you are giving to GRG and flak burst, there's no way I'd waste ability points on levels 2, 3, and 4...I'd suggest numbers more like 10%/20%/30%/40% which correspond to 9.1%/16.7%/23.1%/28.6%...

That you have no adjustment to GRG's cooldown seriously concerns me...also, I think your scale for the duration needs to be tightened or eliminated...a duration of 20/25/30/35 or just a flat 30 makes more sense to me, 10s is just way too short for that type of debuff...remember that the Kol has to face its target, so there is no guarantee you'll be continuously landing successive shots...

I think your values for Energy Absorbtion are way OP...the way you have it set up, the radiance is going to have the stacking maxed out all the time...the damage reduction alone makes that ability far more powerful than even my buffed version of AFF, and you still have AM regen added on top of that...I see no need to increase the weapon damage done, focus on durability and AM regen....maxed damage reduction values around 5%/10%/15%/20% seem much more appropriate and actually are still more powerful than the previous armor buff...

If you are going with that implementation of guidance, I'd suggest passive...I'd also have it apply to the whole gravity well instead of having a range...

It makes no sense that subversion would end just because the marauder left...agents are actually deployed to the enemy surface (it's why the ability makes use of entry vehicles and has to target the planet)...furthermore, for gameplay I think this ability would be seriously undermined if the marauder had to be present...also might want to remove the stacking limit....

Starbase mobilization...personally, I'd have all jumps require the activation of Stablize Phase Space...the SB can only jump if it is using SPS, and after it jumps, it has to wait for the ability to cooldown before it can jump again...that cooldown of 320 seconds basically makes it take forever for an SB to get from an eco player to a frontline, so eco players will have to build them closer to the front line...also, it will be harder for the SB to keep chasing fleets and quickly ravage strings of planets....

Not saying that'll be enough, but it'll certainly be a start....