Empire/Kingdom Balance and flavour

Apologies if this has been addressed elsewhere, I haven't seen it.

In contrast to what I gather from posts most people have been doing, I’ve played mostly Empire to date. I made a switch to Kingdom last night and it seems to be much much stronger. Hard to say for sure until MP, but there are several key things in the tech tree that makes Kingdom a lot stronger, and I haven’t seen anything in the Empire tree that stands out as balancing the ledger. The recruitable units (darklings, umbers) are useful, but are still weaker than normal troops once a few levels have been reached

I’m not at game right now so don’t remember names, however should be clear:

  • Building that supplies 4 materials – in Empire games if I don’t have a materials resource nearby I really struggle for materials early, it is the army limiter and often the special resource limiter
  • Palace – without this massive prestige boost is is very very hard to get level 4 cities, let alone level 5.
  • Mana boost building – casting becomes irrelevant with empire mid game, the exception being summons with in-combat regen

There are probably others, but the ability to boost materials, population and mana so much more is a clear differentiator. The Empire was meant to be about more powerful individual units, but I don’t see that whatsoever, in fact I struggle to think of anything that lets you make a champion or single unit more effective, it is still all about lord hammers and multi-troop units.

 Now, I don’t want Empire to have all of the equivalent stuff, they are meant to be different. Some broad suggestions I’d love to see:

  • The War tree completely different, full of champion buffs and fantasy creatures. The Fallen don’t want to learn how to fight in groups of 6 or make leather leg greaves, they need beserkers and giants and banshee-like wails that terrorise the enemy and drop morale
  • Similarly the Sorcery tree, tech to make your spellcasters more powerful – vampirism, sacrificing population for mana [the general boringness of that path is another issue, I’m sick of teching up to get a new batch of stat boosting magic items]
  • The Empire tree with things like dungeons, gaols, slavery, piracy, ability to sack cities for resources.

 Lets differentiate these according to the premise for the differences between them. Would be good if the specific faction traits were more along these lines, individual abilities rather than combinations of educated, influential, etc.

10,311 views 11 replies
Reply #1 Top

At the moment the Empire faction is almost a carbon copy of the Kingdom faction. I remember an early dev journal - we were promised sage units and powerful champions, and we ended up with a few different spells and different names for troops and buildings ( sions are a joke right now ) . A mix of powerful sions with relevant special abilities leading cheap/weak units would give this game some flavor.  

Reply #2 Top

The only comment i really have is at this stage the empire faction feels and looks quite bland to me, and I usually love playing "evil" factions in games, in this one I just cant bring myself to do it, the graphics hurt my brain

Reply #3 Top

I don't think you are looking at the balancing between Empire and Kingdom. Some examples:

  • Empire civs don't need high level cities, because almost everything they can build only requires a level 3 city.
  • While an Empire civ requires 500 pop for a level 4 city, and a Kingdom civ only requires 400 pop, the Empire civs get level 5 cities at 1000 pop vs. Kingdom civs at 1250 pop.
  • IIRC, Sions only require gold, not resources, to build, and Empire civs get multiple gold mines from research.
  • An Empire civ level 4 city can build any unit (and this includes groups of 3, 9 or 12) in one turn, with a War Council, Garrison and Warrior Temple.

So the Empire civs do have their own bonuses.

Reply #4 Top

I try to play Kraxis from time to time - but there is no flavor, no "evil" choices available. At least I can have a human dinasty with the kingdoms not some half-orc champions. The fallen need some special abilities badly, for example "scale skin" that adds to armor, or "flesh eater" that destroys a town and heals/adds to maximum hp and so on.

Reply #5 Top

Quoting AndonSage, reply 3
Empire civs get multiple gold mines from research.
End of AndonSage's quote

Not to mention that champions and the monsters form the diplomacy tree require only gold to recruit.

 

Reply #6 Top

yes, the Fallen can get some more gold income,  but the monsters and psions aren't anywhere near as good as armed and armoured troops. The gold mine advantage is nice, but I find by the mid game most money comes from battles

Have  I missed where the Fallen get a +7 prestige building like the Palace somewhere? I've never gotten to high level cities with them (note I never play to the end, once the game is obviously very won I stop)

Reply #7 Top

Quoting Droghar, reply 6
Have  I missed where the Fallen get a +7 prestige building like the Palace somewhere? I've never gotten to high level cities with them (note I never play to the end, once the game is obviously very won I stop)
End of Droghar's quote

No, the Empires get a +50% Prestige building.

But the point is that Empire civs don't require high level cities like the Kingdom does.

Reply #8 Top

Strange. I found Empire to be much more powerful than Kingdom and enjoyed them much more.

For one, the spy summon demon and actual full-on large demon both have that amazing arcane doom ability which makes every encounter a joke. After gathering 2 spies and 3 demons into my army nothing went past my first volley unless I was getting bored and wanted to have some fun with my sov and his wife's spells or try out a new unit design. Arcane Doom dominates. And I can't see it being very great to deal with in multiplayer. No idea how a Kingdom player is supposed to counter that.

In addition, while I don't think I ever researched anything that found me crystal (and I got all the way through domination), I DID research a whole lot of stuff that got me lots of gold. Pretty much endless heaps of it when combined with successful warfare. While this made crystal a pain (only crystal source was an enemy's conquered city) it meant that I could build gold-only units like Demons and Sions (sions suck and are pretty stupid, i was expecting some sort of caster leader unit since they had their own temple) all over the place. I think that game I had about 15 demons running across the world with small armies of channelers and their summons. It was ridiculous.

I also like the way Empire looks better than Kingdom. But that's probably just because I always play the hero and so get sort of bored of the standard good fantasy look and need a break for a while before I can enjoy it again. As much as I get bored with the good look, I can't really do evil in games. Don't know why. I just can't.

Reply #9 Top

Edit: Crap. Weird double post. Don't know how to delete this, so yeah... sorry?

Reply #10 Top

Ah, the spy summon demon is early and overpowered, he slipped my mind. He needs to be nerfed

Reply #11 Top

Quoting HooblaDan, reply 8
It was ridiculous.
End of HooblaDan's quote

It can be even more ridiculous - just imbue champions and keep spamming vigilant minions = even faster arcane doom wipeout.