How to add good/evil/neutral flavour to factions (ex Flavouring empires)

Have them eat babies for breakfast, puppies for lunch and kittens for dinner.

I think that Empires are not required to be true evil. Just another point of view, another methods and economic model.

No baby-eaters please.

I don't want some babt-eaters, just want some bad guys using some cool and uniques features

I agree with the slavery of OTHER races.  Also they could have Altars of Sacrifice.  They could have Torturer Facility to keep prestige up or morale of troops increased or something. 

I'm sincerely hoping SD will create actual DIFFERENT races ... like Twilight of the Arnor or AoW:SM - although I don't want this if it would ruin game mechanics, AI etc.  I prefer a good AI over everything. (The AI in AoW:SM suxxors in many ways)

Other buildings/tech:

Inquisitor Center: expands influence

Altars of Sacrifice: gives +1 Arcane knowledge

Slave Plantations: could be different types: +1 to gold, materials, metals etc.

Enforced Fertilization: Adds to city growth (prestige? % bonus) ?

Slave Scribes: +1 research

Cannibalism: +1 food resource (for the baby-eaters so they can feel good - c'mon throw them a bone... heh.)

Arena Bloodsport: reduces training of troops time

Battle Totems (ears, heads etc.): reduces enemy troop morale - can place these on troops as equipment

Bestial Troops: fodder type but that produce quickly and in large numbers easily and cheaply

Technically, slavery is also just an economical model

Anyway, I think different tech trees that create totally different paths and strategies is enough (assuming it will be done properly).

Don't forget that some buildings count as "wonders" (one per game), so it's better if all the civilization compete against one another.

This +1.

Maybe one or two of the Empires could be "evil," but only if one or two of the Kingdoms are also evil. There have plenty of evil kings and queens through history and fiction. And the Romans could of been viewed as both Empires and Kingdoms throughout their history. The British Empire was both good and bad, depending on whether you were inside or not. Ditto for the USA.

Lets try and stay away from the black and white good v evil thing. it's been done, well, in lots of other places. One of the neat ideas in Elemental is having the Empires and Kingdoms divided along lines other than good and evil. It allows for more interesting interactions.

Would you rather see empires & kingdoms divided through a good/neutral/evil classification then ?

yes, I think that would be a lot more interesting than "good white kingdoms" versus "evil black empires"

Keep Empire/Kingdom as a difference in philosophy, and then allow for differences within them. There's plenty of scope for an evil kingdom. Then you could have situations where the other kingdoms get dragged into the war and have to decide between siding with what they know (ally with the fellow kingdom) or stand up for what they think is right (ally with the Empires).

Actually, concepts such as "good" and "evil" shouldn't be bolted onto the difference factions Instead, their actions in each game should determine whether they are good or evil. Implement

slavery = evil points.

Go to war to stop a weak neighbouring empire being invade by a kingdom (and vice versa) = good points

etc

Ideally, in each and every game, all races/civs could end up good/neutral/evil through their game play choices (Rather than ticking a box to say you want to go evil). As otherwise, what's to stop the human player ticking the "good" box, and then invading neighbouring weaker AIs? ... get some actual role playing into the game

Also, there could be two difference good/evil scales, one for the kingdoms and one for the empires. So a civ might end up being viewed as "good" by the empires, but only "neutral" by the kingdoms, etc. Invading a weaker rival would be viewed as as  "good" act by the Empires, as they believe in surival of the fittest, whereas the kingdoms would view it as a evi act.

And of course, this would allow for a Kindom to be viewed as evil by other kingoms, while being viewed as good by the empires.

Now that's a good suggestion and it would certainly add even more depth to the game !

Unfortunately though, at the moment Empires don't seem to have much of a distinct identity beyond being evil. Well, there is their propensity for building grandiose monuments, but that's not much to work with. Evil is kind of their shtick. If you uncouple being evil from being an empire, then empires will need to have a whole new identity created for them.

Personally, I'd rather see kingdoms delineated along more interesting and less binary lines. Inevitably, fantasy societies tend to end up looking like a silly cartoon parody of every good or evil thing that can happen - evil societies rape, murder, kill, enslave, burn babies and cut forests, and jaywalk MUAHAHAHAHAHA! while good societies are the exact opposite. It'd be nice to see a little more variation in that. Some parts of a society may be bad, others, good. It breaks the status quo and allows for more interesting situations and politics to develop.

It always depends on how it presented.

Did you read "The black compagny" ? It's about a mercernary band and you can't help but liking them even if they're far from being good-doers. And if you look at FFH2, they're a lotta evil civs far from the babies eaters.

Again, you just have to think a little further than the usual clichés. You can be evil AND kickass/classy.

One thing I did like about civ4 was the way you could customize government options for economy, ideology, etc.  SOmething similar except with more of a fnatasy bent and most importantly, and idea for what each finsihed combination would be.

For example you could have options on

Sovereigns power vs peoples power - is the word of the sovereign life and death, or do the people have rights in court?

Resource distribution -all to the kingdom, or some kept by the people to let them increase living standards

Experiments - as they research magic, are they able to experiment on populace for better advancement and maybe super units, or is that forbidden by the king?

Cull the weak (like the deathworshipers) or protect the weak to see if there are gifted wizards or scientists (I recall this as a planet option kind of thing in GC2

Maybe could have some really nasty stuff like eugenics for the evil overlords, or something like the previously mentioned slave raids.  Attacking a small town might equal slave bonanza for the empire, or liberated, grateful citizens for good nations.  This could also be an interesting use of minor nations. 

The big idea though would to provide a unifying flavor to these options, so that your choices are reflected in the way your empire works, your people respond to you, and even the kind of heroes you attract. 

Perhaps a good approach would be to mirror the darker aspects across the Empire / Kingdom divide. So you have a Kingdom which is all about being strong enough to fight for survival and defend your land, mirrored in an Empire which is about brute strength and might makes right.

Though I dislike the simplistic black\white approach they usually use, so it might be better to go for a grey scale. So while Tarth might epitomise the principles of a strong defence for the kingdoms, it also means a strict regimental society and automatic conscription - think Spartan society - where anyone not 'doing their bit' is treated as suspect. The Empire on the other hand might have a brutal regime built on personal strength, but it also means it's citizens are far better protected.

theomni > as much as i like so ideas, i can't go the "with Sovereigns power vs peoples power" one. Sovereigns are all powerful being and are followed for this very reason, so i can't see why the people would rebel against the one who brought 'em salvation in a wasteland.

Archonsod > Not bad at all. A paladin-like kingdom (even daring to go loyal/evil if needed), very stucked-up against a multi-cultural empire, expansive and aggressive but good with its people.

Well. Flavor they've put some work in allready... kingdoms turn the terrain around them green and lush, empires turn it into a twisted wasteland.

The story based difference is, the fallen were the followers of the titans.. not just by choice; the titans created them. The titans wanted to take the world's magic for their own.

That's not exactly a nice thing, but that doesn't make the fallen, in and of themselves, a bad people. However... death worshipping, brutal half-demons and such is what they are so 'bad' fits, and some technologies do emphasise this facet.

I think I'd take the flavor thing a bit further, namely with music differences and ambient sound (That might be done allready, but in that case, not thoroughly enough because I haven't noticed it.).

Now, the population structure leads to shantytowns.... that fits well with not caring much for general populace, but not so well with extolling skilled individuals. As such, a research line that lead to estates or similar - productive sites in one way or another, or even better, increasing the abilities of champions, should fit.

I'd love a faction - specific research line, like in galciv II. Wraiths would have magic-enhancing death rituals, Yithril could have combat arenas, and so on.

But slavery (in some forms), random torture and such, that seems more the domain of a caricature of evil; eebil. Although a colosseum style arena for prestige would work; it could increase prestige and income normally, and if you throw a bit of population into it, its bonuses would be doubled for 25-50 turns...

Like your suggestions Khardis but why would be slavery be evil ? In our civilizations it is, as we slowly progressed culture-wise and stop treating other humans as slaves.

But eh, why would they care for other civs/races ? Or even people like them but from another country in thoses hard times ? It ain't exactly jolly over there and you have to do whatever you can to make your people survive so i don't see any caricatural side to slavery there. And again, what about unlocking raiding enemies ressources in the tech tree ? It was, from all time, a valid war strategy !

What is evil... there are many definitions, few of which everyone agrees on.

In that context, I meant 'doing extreme hard for no good reason'. This was aimed mostly at the torture facilities suggestion; torturing people for entertainment is neither good entertainment nor very .. nice. Also, how slavery is often depicted in film. You don't usually round up every man, woman and child in a productive community and put them to work in a salt mine instead (or turn them into the body servants of some vain ruler). In the first case, you destroy a profitable community - most often one of your own than an enemy one - and in the latter case, you take your enemies, give them access to your body, and knives. VERY clever.

Slavery in the Roman emprie were a lot more faceted and nuanced; despite making extensive use of slaves. VERY extensive. And it's a good model for any empire. But there, slavery were traditionally not abhorrent - you could sell yourself into slavery (usually if you had crushing debt), you would be expected to be treated well and freed after a period of time. The glut of prisoners of war devalued slaves a lot, and they were often used for harder purposes. (Hard labor, or even arena fights).

Over to raiding - why raid a place when conquering it will most likely be just as difficult? Other than that, go for it - possily, empire could start with the ability to raze settlements (and send its population as slaves to your own cities, kind of like Rome: Total War), but not to capture them. *shrug*

My point Khardis, exactly that kind of slavery.

As for the raiding part, picture a city with a mine or whatever next to it. It's not a part of the city yet and raiding it (and getting some money in the process) allows to harcele the opponent even if you can't take his city when you don't have the power yet.

Are we gonna be able to change things like technologies and characteristics of each allegiance via mods?

I miss the blood slaves from dominions 3. The spells were really different. They way to play the game is really different when you have to rely on blood instead of the usual earth/fire/whatever/...

If i'm not wrong, Brad said that with the tools we could make even better games than his so i'm positive we'll be able to

Good, I hope so. I hope they manage to make this game good, but if they can't, at least I hope the community gets the tools to "fix" it.

They will but i'd rather see Brad and the team finishing the game and delivering the awesome game we all wait for