Oh, and it's called "Palestine" because the Romans named it after the Israelite's former enemies, the Philistines.

The Philistines were colonists from Greece, called "Philistines" because that is Hebrew for "invader". "Palestine" derives from the Hebrew for "invaderland".

These are pictures I took in Israel a few weeks ago:

http://web.mac.com/ajbrehm/Resources/AccoRothschild.html

Luckily, the West, for all its myriad faults, doesn't agree that extermination is an appropriate response to extermination, so we still have the German people with us. I'm starting to get the impression that you want to see an Arab genocide. Is that really what you want/are prepared to support?

If so, it's clear people in the middle east deserve each other.

Why do you equate German Nazis with all Germans and terrorists and Arab Nazis with all Arabs?

10. If a "Palestinian" converts, Israel will become his ancestral homeland. Yes. Why do you ask?

Because ancestral means you are decended by blood. I was led to believe that was the argument for the Jew's right to Palestine, which is a pretty weak argument in any case.

For example, I've heard that if your mother is Jewish, so are you, even if you don't want to be. This indicates a heritability of the "race". However, it seems that the "race" is really just a culture (including a religion). So you shouldn't be Jewish unless you act like one. Strange. So, I could be Jewish if I decided to become one, regardless of my ancestry. Yet, if my mother is a Jew, then I am one too? You are going to have to explain that one to me. 

4. Both Jews and Arabs are white as are all other peoples who live in the middle east. Some Jews are black. The majority are white. All Arabs in "Palestine" are white. (Why would they be non-white??? They are Caucasians like the Jews are and their common ancestry lies a mere few thousands years ago.

So, this is not racism.

5. Ashkenazim are descended from the same people as non-Ashkenazi Jews. Both variations descend from Israelites and whichever people they mixed with.

I don't really think they necessarily decend from anyone. I could be "more Jewish" by blood than you (assuming this means I have more Hebrew blood in me), and still not be Jewish. You could be a completely Spanish convert, and I could be half Jewish on my father's side. You would be Jewish but I would not.

7. The Zionists bought land and Jews settled there. The claim that the Jews stole the land is an anti-Semitic lie.

Are you sure about this? I thought Palestine was given away after WWII when the Turks were defeated, ignoring the people who lived there. 

8. The majority of Israelis descend from middle-eastern Jews from Arab countries. Those Jews fled the Arab countries.

Who cares who they descend from if they descend from Caucasions? They could just as well be descended from my great great great grandfather. In fact, my great great great grandfather could have been a Jew, if he had wanted. It seems Jews are as different racially from me as the French are from the British. And no one cares about that. It's just "white".

11. The whole Israel thing seems like a scandal to you because you fell for some anti-Semitic lies and apparently didn't have a problem with repeating them. Glad I could help

I don't get this word "anti-Semitic". Doesn't that mean against Arabs and Jews? I mean are the two people are so closely related that you accidentally included the people who would be most "anti-Semitic" with that word. That really says something about how stupid this feud is. This whole thing is so screwed up. Stop killing each other.

I think you are one of those weird reverse-racists who believes that being white makes one evil (why else would you bring up the alleged whiteness of Jews?)

I hope not. This would make me evil, seeing that I am white. I brought that up because it is clear to me that Jews (and apparently Arabs) are not different from me racially. Essentially, my point is this: we are the same. You just have a different culture. It's like being Canadian versus American. So why is everyone so "racist" against each other here? I am not even racist. I don't really care who you are, as long as you share common interests with me. So I really can't understand how people of the same race can be so racist against each other.

It's funny that back when you had to be European and white to be a good person, Jews were considered "Palestinians" and were asked to go back to "Palestine". And now when being European and white is bad, Jews are suddenly white and European (and should leave "Palestine" obviously).

I don't see how Jews were ever anything but white. Unless they were black Jews. But perhaps this was a response to a culture that views itself as "God's chosen people" and frowns on intermarriage with "heathens". If some white guy started calling me a heathen and implying that I'm somehow not as spiritual or some nonsense, I would probably think he was crazy. But some people might take offense. Of course, just as easily a Jew could be tolerant, liberal, and a decent guy. So this response would clearly be a bigoted generalization.

10.

It doesn't mean that according to Jewish law. A convert is as much a Jew as the child of a Jewish mother is.

And I agree that an "ancestral right" to the land is a weak argument. But who is making it? I don't. The Bible and the Quran make the claim, not I. And while I believe the claim, I don't use it as an argument.

The Zionists bought the land and fought for it when they were attacked. And middle-eastern Jews obviously cannot live anywhere else. That's a very strong argument.

Note that en-masse deportation of Hebrew-, Arabic- and Aramaic-speaking Jews to western countries is not a solution either. At some point the only solution will be for the Arabs to accept that there are and will remain Jews in the middle-east.

5.

Correct. And what's the problem? I think you attach a great importance to "blood" while arguing about something that has nothing to do with blood.

7.

Yes, I am sure. The Jewish National Fund started buying land long before World War I and continued buying land under British rule. By 1948 a part of Israel was inhabited by more Jews than Arabd and that part became the independent state of Israel.

The JNF continues managing land and cultivating it. For example, it built the irrigation systems that literally made the desert bloom. (I have seen the difference between irrigated hills and natural hills in the Judaean desert.)

If you go to Wikipedia you can see a picture of Tel Aviv in 1906: some 50 dudes standing in the desert. The Zionists bought the land from Bedouins and founded the city of Tel Aviv back when it was still the Ottoman Empire.

Baron Benjamin Rothschild financed a lot of it. That's why there are streets and even a city named after him in Israel. He bought most of the land in the north. Jewish settlement in the south began earlier.

The Negev was assigned to the Jewish state since the Bedouins who lived there were (and remain) allied with the Jews. Similarly the Druze in the north were allied with the Jews and became part of Israel. And you will find that most Arabs in northern Israel do not want their towns to become part of an Arab state now either.

The JNF is still collecting money all over the world for the Israel project.

8.

Seemed like you cared about descent. But my point is that the Jews of Israel cannot live anywhere else. They were expelled and driven out of their homes in Arab countries and fled to Israel. (Naturally they never received any help from the UN.) So what do you want them to do? Should they go back to Iraq and Egypt and get attacked individually? They do prefer fighting back.

Nobody wants to be an ethnic or religious minority in the Arab world.

Look at Sudan or Iraq and see how well non-Arabs fared under Arab rule.

11.

If you don't know what "anti-Semitic" means look in up in a dictionary.

Really? You brought up the concept of white people "stealing the homes" of hundreds of thousands of "Palestinians". So it seemed as if you saw a racial difference between two Caucasian peoples.

If you don't see a racial differece, why point out than one of the peoples is "white"? It wouldn't even matter if they were different.

(Ironically there are black Israelis, but they are all Jews.)

Ask the guys who buys "Mein Kampf"?

If you are wondering about racism in the middle east, I suggest the following experiment:

Dress up as an obvious Arab, carry an Arab flag, and walk through a city in Israel.

Then, a week later, dress up as an obvious Jew, carry the Israeli flag, and walk through a city in an Arab country.

You'll be surprised how quickly you will understand what racism and anti-Semitism are.

White supremacists see Jews as non-white. Hitler and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem saw them as non-white.

And Jews are not the only culture that frowns on intermarriage. Catholics also don't do it (if they follow their faith) and neither do Muslims. I don't see anything wrong with it.

In Israel, of course, while it isn't possible to intermarry in the country, all foreign marriages, including gay marriages are recognised. So perhaps marriage restrictions is a bad example for a criticism of Israel.

And perhaps, as your opinions suggest you don't know that much about Judaism (which somehow doesn't stop you from judging it, and I think that's a problem). Jews do not believe that non-Jews are not "spiritual enough". Jews simply believe that non-Jews are not Jewish. The fact that nations see each other as different from each other has never been a problem, until the Jews did it, when it suddenly became a valid criticism to point out that they do.

Which Jew called you a heathen?

It seems you made up a lot of stuff about Jews and Israel and Judaism and somehow believe that you have a right to criticise Judaism for whatever you didn't care to look up before accepting it as fact.

As for the "chosen people", I do wonder... how can a people who constitute less than 0.5% of the world population be on the news all the time? Perhaps G-d didn't chose them, but the rest of the world certainly does.

As for the "chosen people", I do wonder... how can a people who constitute less than 0.5% of the world population be on the news all the time? Perhaps G-d didn't chose them, but the rest of the world certainly does.

I don't see how being on the news and being "God's chosen people" relate. And news happens all over the world. Certainly being recognized by institutions that run stories about bats stuck to space shuttles and pet chimpanzees attacking middle aged women does not mean much.

Which Jew called you a heathen?

It seems you made up a lot of stuff about Jews and Israel and Judaism and somehow believe that you have a right to criticise Judaism for whatever you didn't care to look up before accepting it as fact.

What did I make up? The thing about the Middle East being divided up after WWII and Israel given to the Jews. No, I did not make this up. How much of the story it explains I now wonder, since you demonstrated an expertise in that area with your response. Obviously though, it is not important, or the news would have told me about it. And isn't this entire post supposed to be about how you do not like the news?

You admitted the adherence to a policy of intramarriage. For the record, I am not Catholic or Muslim, but if they too suffer from that sort of centrist mentality, then certainly they could also alienate the people around them. And you want to use the Bible and the Quran as ancestral justification? Fine, that's where I took the word heathen from. In your defense, that is not solely a Jewish word. But it is certainly not my word. I want nothing to do with it.

And perhaps, as your opinions suggest you don't know that much about Judaism (which somehow doesn't stop you from judging it, and I think that's a problem).

I only judge the sense of racial superiority. I believe that if you were to tell me you don't think Jews are better than non-Jews, you would be lying. And more to the point, I believe this notion is absurd because:

A) I believe Jews see themselves as members of a superior race.

1) membership can be inherited

2)  A Jew (admittedly one who eats ham) once told me he thought it was a race. 

Any time in the past I have seen "race", it has meant blood. (This, I believe, is why you thought I was obsessed with blood. You admit is has nothing to do with blood. Can you admit Judaism is not a race?) 

So my delimma boils down to being frustrated that racially identical people think of themselves as being heritably different, while at the same time accepting converts. It doesn't add up, and I am missing the explanation.

Ask the guys who buys "Mein Kampf"?

I would. But that guys is a either hopeless academic, or he is a hopeless crazy. Why hate Jews? Have they done something to me I don't know about?

Really? You brought up the concept of white people "stealing the homes" of hundreds of thousands of "Palestinians". So it seemed as if you saw a racial difference between two Caucasian peoples.

Why? How does it alienate other people if Catholics and Muslims only marry within faith? I don't understand. I couldn't care less about whom other people want to marry.

Jews are a people. Technically Jews are a number of tribes of a people. There exist other tribes and collections of tribes (like the tribe of Dan and the Samaritans). The actual people's name is "Israel" or "Israelites" for the members.

Israelites have a language (Hebrew) and sometimes a country (the Land of Israel). Israelites also have their own religion, like most ancient peoples used to have before the spread of universal religions like Christianity and Islam.

I don't think that Jews are better than non-Jews. Judaism teaches pretty much the opposite. Jewish belief is that G-d chose the Israelites to demonstrate His power because the miracles wouldn't have been as impressive if He had chosen a strong and powerful people. Jewish belief also says that G-d chose other peoples for other tasks.

And if you believe that inheriting membership (which is completely normal when it comes to a people) and the fact that Israelites are a people (or a "race" if you insist), somehow proves that Jews see themselves as superior to others, you are an idiot.

I don't understand your fascination with a people while at the same time finding it odd that they would see themselves as a chosen people. G-d might have chosen the Israelites for some task, I don't know. But the rest of the world surely have chosen the Jews for something and the world proves it every day.

Iranians are an Indo-European people, like Germans and Indians. Persians are one Iranian tribe, if you will. All Iranians speak languages related to German, Latin, and Hindi. "Iran" means "Land of the Aryans" in Persian/Farsi.

Iranians are not Arabs.

The Iranian Empire collapsed in 1979. It had existed for over 2500 years, albeit under Greek rule for a few hundred years and then under Arab rule for a few decades later. For the last 1000 years Iran was independent again.

Arabs are a Semitic people, like Israelites (Jews) and Aramaeans and Assyrians. (The Kurds are an Iranian people.)

Semitic peoples belong to a greater group of people who speak the Afro-Asiatic (or Hamito-Semitic) languages. These cultures stretch from North-Africa (Berbers) to Egypt and south via Semitic peoples (Ethiopeans and Eritraeans) to Kushitic tribes (Somalia) and from Egypt eastwards via Israelites, Aramans, Assyrians to the Arabs southwest of Iraq.

Most people in the region tend to hate whoever killed more than a hundred thousand of your people, or, if that isn't possible, the Jews.

Iranians and Arabs have fought many bloody wars, the last one in the 1980s with more than two million dead.

Skin colour has nothing to do with it.

He pretty much started it.

(Note that while the Zionists bought the land they settled on before 1948, after they were attacked they tended to keep the land they won in the war, offered it back in exchange for peace and were told that there will be no peace ever since.)

God always picks the minority.  God is the God of the underdog for one thing.  He always picks the "losers" as his own to do his glory.  Christ himself later said that it's the broad way that leads to destruction.  It's the narrow way that is the right way.  But when it came to Israel from the get go God said this about them:

"The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people his treasured possession.  The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples for you were the fewest of all peoples.  But it was because the Lord lvoed you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighy hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.  Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations....  Deut 7:7-9

The stories that have come out of Israel since 1948 have been astounding.  The fact that the Jews are still here after wandering around for 2,000 years scattered all over kingdom come with no country of their own shows that something special is going on here.    If people can't see that there's something divine here, a plan in the works, I don't know what to say. 

I am glad to see you here, KFC. I can always rely on you to have faith when other people descend into repeating negative stereotypes. The simple fact is that Jews are not very special, but what G-d wants to do with them is.

It didn't start in 1948. The history of Tel Aviv is fascinating. I have seen a picture of Tel Aviv in 1906: a few dozen people standing in the desert. Today's it's a major metropolis and one of the most important trade centres in the world. The land it was built on was bought from Bedouins.

And the survival of the Jewish people is indeed astounding, as was the revival of the Hebrew language as a vernacular and the creation of a new Hebrew culture. (Ireland has been trying for a century to revive Irish as a major language. The Zionists succeeded with Hebrew.)

What you quote is very good, as it shows precisely what Jewish (and Christian) belief is regarding the "chosen" part: Jews are not better than others. At the very core of Judaism lies the belief that only G-d makes the Israelites as good as others. Israel is a testament to the fact that a people inferior to so many can still survive if G-d wants it to. It's amazing.

P.S.: And before anybody screams bloody murder: when KFC speaks of "losers" she is not insulting Jews. She only shows an understanding of Jewish culture and religion which indeed has such a view of why Israel was chosen by G-d. I myself am indeed a loser, in a way, but I pray that I will be better.

I agree.  It goes way back but just since 1948 for brevity sake here is enough even.  Rememer I wrote about that way back with Truman and his partner who came to the White House just before the UN vote?  I was always going to write another article bringing it up to date but never did.  Actually I did, but weirdly enough when I was done, a glitch in JU erased my whole writing.   I didn't have the heart to start over.  It all centered around the person Eli Cohen and his part in the Golan Heights miracle.    That was an amazing story that I shall never forget. 

exactly.  God says he picks the foolish of the world for his glory.  I mean look at the choices he picked over the years.  It wasn't the  religious Pharisses.  It was the fishermen.   He bypassed a King for a shepherd boy named David.  Quite often it wasn't the eldest in a family who held high honor but the youngest God chose, like Jacob and Isaac, and Joseph etc.  I guess it has something to do with the "first shall be last and the last shall be first."  God is the God of the underdogs or the "losers." 

Well they're special in the fact that He chose them just like I feel special that he chose me.  But you're right in that it's really all about God afterall.  It's not really about the Jews nor me.  It's all about God and who he is. 

I know the story. It's amazing what a single person can do.

"God says he picks the foolish of the world for his glory." Indeed.

Precisely.

But some take this and make it into a claim of Jewish superiority. It has nothing to do with the superiority of one people over another and everything to do with Jewish tradition specifically denying such superiority of Jews over others.

Why? How does it alienate other people if Catholics and Muslims only marry within faith? I don't understand. I couldn't care less about whom other people want to marry.

It is not really about whom people want to marry. It is about whom people want other people to marry. I heard a man tell me a story about how he had to break up with his fiancee because her parents put up too much of a fight about her marrying out of faith. To me, it seemed this was not her choice, and it was a bigoted intervention. She probably could have remained with him, but she would have lost all ties to her family. I will not tell you if she was Jewish, since it does not matter. To me, this is no different than intolerance to inter-racial marriage. If you cannot live with someone in your family having a different faith, then isn't this a breeding ground for animosity between two peoples? It is certainly not a very liberal standing.

As a victim of America's attempt to create a melting pot culture, I am really without a secondary culture. So I am not an advocate of destroying it, but I believe that free exchange between peoples is necessary to their getting along. Consider the Montagues and the Capulets.

It's totally different.

Race doesn't make a difference. Skin colour is irrelevant. But how to raise your child is something parents should agree on. What languages do your teach your children? What kindergarden do you send them to? What schools? Will you go to church or to a mosque with them every week? This is something parents better clear up before they start a family.

And what about beliefs? Do you teach your child about Jesus and Santa Claus? Or will you prefer a family where one parent tells the child that Santa is coming and another who tells him that Santa doesn't exist?

Right on Leauki.  

This is just a distraction from the point.

Teach your children everything, and then let them decide.  There is no need to push a child in one direction or the other, and in fact, this could even be considered unethical. Not only does it teach a child not to think independently, it potentially harms a child whose views could later detour from those held central to the indoctrinated beliefs.

Do you have children?

If you teach your children "everything", they will simply have no sense of direction. That's all. Sure, you should teach to be open-minded, but they do need a community and friends they can rely on. You don't get that if you run from synagogue to church to mosque every other weekend.

There is NOTHING wrong with a normal Jewish upbringing (or a Christian upbringing, for that matter). Those are good values.

And if you think that there is some kind of neutral ideology that doesn't teach any values, you are mistaken. Those systems are simply new and unproved, not neutral.

"If you teach your children "everything", they will simply have no sense of direction."

What proof do you have of this?

It's obvious to me.

There is only a limited amount of time you have directing your children. Telling them ALL about the different versions of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism etc. is just not possible.

I have proof.  I have a cousin who was brought up with nothing really.  Her mother said she was letting her daughter decide what was right and wrong when it came to religion and morals.

What a diseaster she turned to to be.  She had absolutely no direction.  Her life and ideas were chaotic.  Hmmmmm much like we're seeing in our world today.  Many others are being brought up with this idea and it's proving disasterous. 

to me too.  It's chaos vs order.  You give them reasons for what and why you believe and bring them up with this.  When they are older, they are free to accept or reject this.  Nobody is making them continue as their parents did.  Everyone has to eventually make their own way and have their own faith. 

Yes, that is pretty much what I thought of it.

Parents have a duty and a right to teach their children what they (the parents) think is right.

This is within limits, of course. But I doubt that a normal Christian or Jewish upbringing constitutes child abuse, so we are good.

All I have to say to this is: Hallelujah.

>_>

Be well, ~Alderic

I don't see why children need religion for a "sense of direction". Sucess is the direction. Continue for 18 years. Although, in retrospect, a sense of identity and a community for help and reinforcement can be important, especially in America where the local culture can be less meaningful in the face of prominant dual cultures. Judaism in particular can give you a sense of acceptance, and access to privileged opportunities, like dual citizenship with Israel and a clique of like-interested scholarly people.

Otherwise, when your kid asks where he came from, tell him it doesn't matter because knowing doesn't help him to grow up and become a doctor so he can deal weed for 500k/year and never go to jail. Or help people. It's his choice. Do you need to give him some ideas about that as well, or are morals absolute, like rationality?