Re Heinlein, Starship Troopers is a good book, but if you're only going to read a littl by him, you might do better with The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and Stranger in a Strange Land. At least one of them will be in lit courses centuries from now.

And back on the where are the not-dead-white-guys theme, I can't believe I forgot to rave about Samuel R. Delaney. Perhaps it is because he is so important to my reading that I take him for granted. His most famous book is probably Dhalgren. My favorites are usually Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand and the Return to Nevèrÿon series.

He's also one of the very few critics I've ever liked to read--he totally converted me to his SF/specutlative fiction notion (fie on the sci-fi vs. fantasy crap in the bookstores & libraries!).

Wikipedia has a selected bibliography, etc., at WWW Link

A series I would recomend is the Gaalctic Encounters books. They're written in an informative tone, almost like history books, and the artwork in the books is very nice.

IMHO Machiavelli's prince didn't start out as a prince, he had to be put through the wringer, as we all must if we are going to grow and fulfill at least a part of our amazing potential. You seem to be bordering on suggesting 'good&evil' dichotomy ... fortunately there is no such thing. That dichotomy is a fantasy-myth in itself.

Re-reading your post ... mythos v. pure fiction ... hmmm. I wonder if a read of the author's biography or introductions to the book might explain which myths and historical figures he drew upon to shape his characters? He couldn't have just dreamed them up. He must have learned to read before he started writing.

They all seem pretty respectable too. I agree that using successful role models is a good thing to start out with, but I have learned to use my own common sense and not assume they were right. Especially since so much of history is written by the winners' sycophants, and has been so twisted & distorted. Following a twisted role model whose true story has been modified by a sycophant will probably lead me into a dead end, more than likely. I don't think that's a good idea.

On a cheerier note, I managed to pick up the "Ender's Game" series [Orson Scott Card] AND the Robot trilogy [Isaac Asimov] at a local used book store today! Yaaay!   

You need to look up the Medici family, he wrote the Prince to get on their good side.

I was using "good" and "evil" the way Machiavelli does. "Good" is treating people the way they like to be treated "Evil" is treating them the way the do not!



Dune is still pure fiction no matter how well researched the base cultures were, Paul Maud dib is a totally made up person. Drawing apon a legend does not make a fictional character a myth.



This can be said about anyone includingBuddah, Jesus,or Mohammad. Everyone has made up stories about them.

Alastair Reynolds' Revelation Space series are my current favourite.

I have my 30 year old copy of "Troopers" somewhere. I bought a spare, and I bought one to give to my son a few years ago. I though I was the only one...

I had a tear in my eye watching "Troopers" with my son when it was released, even though it wasn't perfect. I shed a few tears, too, when he was 5 (he's 15 now) and we went to the cinematic re-release of "Star Wars". Episode 4, I mean. The real one. Not this Count Dooku drivel....

Anyway, my point - These stories and movies have affected my life and viewpoints more than I realize. For you younger folk - read, think, make opinions, but by no means let someone think for you. All these classic stories have touched our hearts because they make us think. And we are creating a better world for having imagined the worlds that Asimov, Heinlein, Clarke, and George Lucas have shown us.

Not bad for a space opera, huh?

Oops! Since some of the folk here are emphasizing authors with matching chromosomes, I can't let us leave out a recommendation for C.J. Cherryh. The mistress of...disturbing...space drama. Also perhaps the greatest living filk composer.

drrider

Do I understand correctly that in your definition of myth or mythic character, Hercules, Theseus, Paul Bunyon, the Headless Horseman, and Galahad are not myths, or mythic characters, because they are not demonstrably based on historical figures? Is that not nearly the opposite of the conventional definition?

drrider

Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game and all its sequels (there are 7 books, 3 follow the character Ender, the other 4 follow a different character)

Wow, this thread sure got resurrected from the dead.



I liked the film, though I'm not sure I could tell you why. One thing that is very interesting about it, though, is the DVD commentary between Verhoeven and the guy who wrote the film. It's very clear that they had, err, very different ideas of what the film was about. It makes for an interesting conversation, and one of the only DVD commentaries that I've found worthwhile listening to.

I hate to hear people calling Verhoeven a fascist; he actually grew up in Holland while it was occupied by the Nazis, and mentions this in the commentary. That said, the imagery in Starship Troopers was intentionally fascistic, just not in a way that promotes fascism. Unfortunately, I think the film does fail in that, else people wouldn't go around calling it pro-fascism, heh. Still, it is kind of a fun watch.



Yeah. One thing about LMB is that she writes stuff out of sequence. You probably should have started with Curse of Chalion which precedes Paladin of Souls and is a much better book to boot, IMHO. The third book in the series is in a different part of the world and a few hundred years before the events of CoC/PoS, and is also, I'm afraid to say, not quite as good a read. Really, I'd recommend reading her science fiction instead... try to find a copy of Young Miles and go from there. There are two books written before Young Miles, but they're about Miles' mother and father, and don't really need to be read first. Her best stories are about Miles Vorkosigan himself.



I have to admit that there is no science fiction writer I have a more difficult time reading that C.J. Cherryh. I slogged through both Downbelow Station and Cyteen and couldn't wait for them to be over. I have no idea how she won the Hugos for those years.

Read Merchanter's Luck and the entire Pride of Chanur series (3?). They will make you much friendlier to Cherryh's work. And although it has virtually nothing to do with space travel (except that its set on a lost colony), Angel with a Sword is some of her best work...and fun.

Avoid Serpent's Reach though, unless you've really developed that sort of Cherryh-twisted taste. It was only the second story I ever read (along with Lovecraft's Color out of Space) that ever left me sort of...indefinably queasy. Which means that it was powerful writing that...just didn't agreed with my stomache??

drrider

Did I miss it? I don't recall anywhere in this thread where anyone was interpreting Verhoven or his film version of ST as proto-fascist. Quite the opposite I think.

Its just very unfortunate, even blind of him, that he chose to see as a disguised promotion of fascism a work that was utterly devoted to the concept of individual responsibility within society. Then he satirized it savagely, as an anti-fascist statement, and turned off a generation of young viewers who might have benefited as I did from reading the book in the years when they were forming their adult values.

drrider

I am not a sci-fi fan normally - beyond Star Trek / Wars anyway. I can definitely play Sci-Fi games so long as they aren't too "tekkie" as it just doesn't interest me.

Having said that I have just read a sci-fi book that I really enjoyed. My favourite genre is fantasy, and this particular book seemed just like a fantasy in space. While the plot and space technology were very well thought out and implemented, the story was still driven by the characters.

The book if anyone knows of it or interested is the first of the Saga of the Seven Suns..... "the Hidden Empire" by Kevin J Anderson. There are definitely some parallels to the Gal Civ universe.

Hercules and Theseus very well could have been real people. It was not till recently that Troy was considered just made up. Paul Bunyon and the Headless Horseman are fiction written close to today way less than 300 years. Galahad I d have to look up bt a large part of the Arthurian "legend" was from a book written in the 14th century, which was heavily barrowed from Celtic legends. But yes you are right many would call all of them "legends". I prefer to be more choosy.

What I found was a 3-book package called "The Ender Saga" - "Ender's Game" + "Ender's Shadow" + "Shadow of the Hegemon"

Now that I have the front covers to look at, I can see what other books are listed by the publisher and look for them too. Already finished Ender's Game and partway through Ender's Shadow. Pretty good read. Seems to be more of an exercise in psychology andor technological mysticism than anything else, but well written nonetheless.
Those sound faintly familiar. Wonder if I have read those or if I picked it up in some oblique reference in another book. Speaking of references, in his introduction to "Ender's Game", Mr. Card mentions quite a few other books, and input from fans. The intro is a good source for some not-sci-fi education as well.
Dunno why, but the "Speaker For The Dead" scene in "Ender's Game" seems to have a connection with these comments, in my mind. Maybe we are all Speakers for the Dead.

Ick Anderson. I'll never forgive him for what he did to Herbert's beautiful dune series. He really does write some okay books though.
His characters are all way too simplistic and his tech is both ridiculous and poorly implememted imho. I can't seem to stop reading his Saga series though. It rankles at my Hard SF soul

If anyone want's the best sci-fi book in ages read Pushing ice by alastair reynolds. Its freaking amazing.

hmm double post for some reason.

strangely have "Pushing Ice" right next to me, ready to open

Quick thoughts on others to recommend that in different ways remind me of GalCiv.... anything by Jack McDevitt, Iain Banks, Richard Morgan.... Many others of course

Like Cherryh, but agree she can be hard going at times... And sometimes leaves you "ill at ease" at how the story played out, but guess thats the intent. Remember being shocked at some of the Banks stories early on, and then shocked again when they did not shock (if you have read Consider Phlebas, and then Look to Windward, guess you will understand)

I'd like GalCivEleven to let me play an Iain Banks Culture story from the POV of one of those massive AI/habitat/ships with names like Spank You for Expecting Me to Have a Name.

That would be sweet, indeed.

[edit] p.s. I miss Evil Stormbringer.

I think I may have mislead you in my previous post. There is Ender's Game, and 7 sequels, totalling 8 books.

Ender Series:
Ender's Game - Speaker for the Dead - Xenocide - Children of the Mind

"Bean" Series:
Ender's Shadow - Shadow of the Hegemon - Shadow Puppets - Shadow of the Giant

The proper order for reading is Ender's Game, The whole "Bean" Series (in order), then the remaining 3 books of the Ender Series (in order).

Oh, ok. Hopefully I'll be able to find all the rest, so I can read them in order, b4 I lose patience and start reading whatever I have atm! Thanks   

Hasn't been a post here in a while, thought I'd see if there's any life in the old sci-fi reader's yet ...

Just picked up a copy of "Starship Troopers" [Robert A. Heinlein] (new) at a Waldenbooks locally. I was looking for "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and "Stranger in a Strange Land" [Robert A. Heinlein] and "Armor" [Stakely] (didn't have either) but when I saw Starship Troopers I snatched it right away. Haven't had a copy on-file for quite some time, and I was glad to get it.

Though the young (nice!) staff lady said she had Troopers in stock because she knew it was a classic (smart, too!), when she offered to order Armor for me (only takes a week she said), I declined so I could look at the used-book stores again. Never know when it might turn up! Maybe tomorrow ...

Read "Ender's Game", "Ender's Shadow", and "Speaker for the Dead" ... Peeked at "Shadow of the Hegemon" then skipped it (why do I keep thinking of the word "HugMoney" whenever I see the word "Hegemon"?). [Orson Scott Card]

My list of wanna-reads from this post is still pretty impressive, but if anyone has any thing else to add (about sci-fi)? Hopefully?  Sci-fi book comments?  

Lois McMaster Bujold's Miles Vorkosigan books are outstanding: deformed young midget nobleman from a rather backwater planet somehow winds up becoming the leader of a band of highly trained mercenaries and gallivants around the galaxy having adventures, up until he screws up and realizes it's time to grow up now. My personal favorite so far is "Diplomatic Immunity," in which he tries to use his same heads-first, no-holds-barred, take-no-prisoners, lie-now-admit-the-truth-later strategies in the pursuit of love, with disastrous results.

Starship Troopers has been mentioned, as has Armour, but has anyone else read the Forever War? Think Vietnam in Space.

I started reading the Night's Dawn Trilogy because the first chapter was interesting to me, and then about halfway through the first book, this huge plot twist happened that had me going WTF!!!!???? I wound up reading the entire series just to see where the heck he was going with this incredibly goofy and ridiculous premise, and had a blast the whole time. It works best if you don't try to question it, just accept it.

Ahhhh, Doc Smith and the Lensman series, classic SF and lovingly mocked by me and my friends as "SUPER DUPER BATTLESHIP 7999 fired its ULTRA MAGNUM DESTRUCTO-BEAMS at the EEEEVIL ALIEN HORDES FROM DEEP SPACE as the SPACE DRAGONS used their TELEPATHIC POWERS TO battle the PLANET OF DOOOOOOOM!!!!!" Great books.

David Weber, John Ringo, David Drake: all fun ways to pass the time, I usually borrow their books from a library, or read them off the free CDs Baen used to include witht heir books.

Clarke, Asimov, Heinlein. . . bah, enough said about them, classics, all, read them now.

If you like high-concept sci fi, check out Steven Baxter, especially (for us space war types) his more recent book "Exultant" which is about humanity fighting a four-dimensional war against a powerful alien race from the dawn of time called the Xellee, which also asks such questions as "What do you do when a fleet returns before it left due to relativity and weird-ass time issues?"

The Dark Wing series by William Hunt are quite decent too. The basic concept of the first book is that humanity is at war with a species of avians that essentially sees our culture as weak because of our willingness to make peace with our enemies. One admiral realizes that the only way to defeat our enemy is if humanity can find a way to fit their mythology and culture, and engages in a campaign of genocide to establish himself as the Dark Wing: a satan-like figure of destruction who, nonetheless, is considered a force for rebirth in alien mythology: in short, committing genocide to avoid genocide.

Finally, one from the "weird Japanese Cartoons" crowd: Hiroyuki Morioka's "Crest of the Stars," although oriented towards a younger audience, is quite good. Short description: Elves in Space. Long Description: what if humanity created a race of genetically engineered humans as living tools to explore space for them, and they turned around and created a space empire instead? The anime is good too, even some of my friends who don't like weird Japanese Cartoons enjoy it. It's also one of the few sci-fi stories I know where a planet is conquered without a single shot being fired: think of it as an "influence flip" if you will.

1. Heinlein - Starship Troopers - written decades before anything else. Quite probably the most influential sci-fi book ever.

2. Steakley - Armor - very dark, but very good. A hard read, as it jumps around a lot, but extremely good novel.

3. Weber & White - Crusade, In Death Ground, Shiva Option, & Insurrection - 4 books that we all should read - a great look at the difficulties of a true interstellar war.

4. Asimov - ALL OF THEM! - the man was a visionary.

5. Niven - a lot of great work - mostly short stories, but an interconnective time line that makes each story part of a greater framework.

6. Lauver - BOLO series (at least inspired by his original.

Just my 2 cents.

Love this thread, loads of potential reads.

Marcus

Ps my quiet nights will never be the same.
PPs hope there worth reading, just p'ing with you

Marcus