Mumble made me do it

This is the kind of conversation that leades me to start forming ideas in my head along the lines of getting a gun and shooting myself! You know, just to make the intense feelings of boredom and insanity go away.

What is a dollar worth?

I followed the link and this is just like every other one that I've seen. They horrifically underestimate the "real" extent of inflation.

For example, in 1971 rent on a nice two bedroom apartment in Boston was $120 a month. That same apartment is going for $1800 a month now. In that same year I was married and spent $25 a week on food for two people. Today I spend $140 a week for the same two people and if anything I ate better then than now.

Your calculator says inflation from 1971 to now is about 6.5 times which is close on food but nowhere near reality on housing. I suspect it’s nowhere near accurate on such items as gas and medical insurance as well. The other effect of this inflation is to gradually push everyone into higher tax brackets. As I pointed out my mom’s total tax burden was close to 6% in 1965, mine today is closer to 40%.

This would tend to imply I was against “entitlement” programs, but I’m not. I don’t begrudge the welfare mom her couple hundred dollars a month, I do begrudge the corporate welfare represented by Halliburton’s no bid $80 billion dollar contract at the beginning of the Iraq war.

As far as glorified car mechanics I truly believe that to be the case. If I have an ingrown toenail I first must go to my primary care physician who charges my insurance $386 (plus my $20 co-pay) for a two minute office visit simply for him to refer me to his buddy podiatrist. Is it any wonder that an average family medical insurance coverage costs on the order of $18,000 per year. Plus I get a far more honest diagnosis and prognosis from my mechanic than I do my doctor.

I don’t really mean to be so vitriolic (look it up) but this is really just the simple truth. But I can understand Mystikmind’s point of view. I consider it good thing that I should be dead within 20 years. I’m also glad I had the foresight to not have any children.

I think the economics factor in Galciv2 is kind of shallow. I mean, there should be Infrastructure expenses, unemployment, military population, imigrants and a few other things that I can't remember.

Things such as planetary invasion should be fixed. Slaughtering everyone on a planet is a stupid tactic. Thats where the military pop. comes in. Well, I don't want to trail off. You should be able to keep the old pop without needless slaughtering.

Well, is is the link to the combat ideas   

WWW Link

I don’t begrudge the welfare mom her couple hundred dollars a month

Depends on how many months she gets it. As stated before somewhere by me there is nothing wrong with a hand up. All these hand out though really need to be done away with lest we all end up pennyless.

family medical insurance

You pay more because the doc has to pay for malpractice insurance. Those malpractice rates go up every year because of the law suites. Failure of certian political parties to institute caps will keep your medical expenses rising for a very long time.

And I don't think you were harsh at all. You stand by what you beleive in, as do I.

You stand by what you believe in, as do I.

It's good to be different and still be able to be friends.

I do understand that malpractice insurance is a major medical expense, however even with this expense doctors are routinely millionaires and easily make more than a quarter to a half million dollars a year. I just don’t see that the work they do and their education warrant this level of compensation. Of course I also object to ballplayers and actors that make 20 million a year.

It's a matter of degree, you’re talking about pennies compared to thousands. What has the Iraq war cost? Estimates vary but a few billion a week is conservative. AFAIK not only have we not paid dime one for the war, we haven't even charged a penny of the war as an expense against the budget. The amount spent but not funded or expensed for the Iraq war could have funded every federal so called entitlement program for eternity. 80 billion for Halliburton alone within the first two months of the war, and this war has gone on longer than WWII and still going.

But I have talked politics longer than I really wanted to. I don't really get all that excited about it because I know I won't convince someone with different opinions just as those with different opinions won't convince me. It's as you say, just what I believe in.

It's good to be different and still be able to be friends.

Absolutely.

I just don’t see that the work they do and their education warrant this level of compensation. Of course I also object to ballplayers and actors that make 20 million a year.

I agree that they are over paid.

I'll probably get flamed for this (not by you Mumble) (hopefully) but for me the War was never about WMD or oil. It ws about killing an enemy on their own soil. Problem was not *all* of them wanted us medeling in their affairs. That said, I did/do support it and all of the money that has been spent in fighting it because I beleived we were doing the right thing. I have deployed to the area five times. Once for Storm/Shield and three times for OIF/OEF and while you see people protesting us in Iraq all over the media, that, to me, is not the feeling of Middle Easterners in general.

And easing back into the economics side if this, I would like nothing more than for our military to come home and spend all of the tax free money here that they have earned over there.

I have deployed to the area five times. Once for Storm/Shield and three times for OIF/OEF and while you see people protesting us in Iraq all over the media, that, to me, is not the feeling of Middle Easterners in general.

What's been asked of our military is far above and beyond and yet they've always answered the call. Tours have been extended and leaves shortened, one can question who actually benefits, but it's most certainly not the serviceperson or their family. I may question the wisdom of those that put our military in it's current position, but I would *never* question the dedication, loyalty and professionalism of our military.

I think the economics factor in Galciv2 is kind of shallow. I mean, there should be Infrastructure expenses, unemployment, military population, imigrants and a few other things that I can't remember.

As long as it were explained somewhere how all of these factors fit into the game mechanics without adding more graphs and sliders to micromanage, I agree. And you forgot to mention illegal aliens.   

I just don’t see that the work they [doctors] do and their education warrant this level of compensation.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, but this line of reasoning begs a question: Where do you draw the line? That is, the line between who is overcompensated and who is undercompensated? How much (I don't claim to know, just asking) of the $386 your insurance company pays for your primary care physician visit actually goes to the physician?

The alternative in many countries, such as Canada, is a socialized health care system. From what I understand (Moosetek or other Canucks who read this, please correct me if I'm mistaken), health care costs much less, but waiting periods before being seen by a medical professional can stretch into months (for non-emergency care), causing many who can afford it to come to the U.S. and pay out of pocket.

I’m also glad I had the foresight to not have any children.

I understand the sentiment, but forgive me for saying I'm sorry to hear that. You are erudite, employed, and able to keep a marriage together, which is more that I can say for a whole heck of a lot of people who are parents. I hope you have some nieces and nephews who can learn from your example, at least.

I say I understand the sentiment, though, because right now I have to quit writing and everything else to go and read bedtime stories to my three-year-old. And her little brother is due in March. What was I thinking?

What was I thinking?

You probably were thinking with that "other" head.   

Yes, children can be a blessing, but they're also such a tremendous responsibility. It's the responsibility for a child that I couldn't bring myself to accept. Some say, and I agree, that you're truly not grown up until you have a child that depends on you.

Also drawing the arbitrary line is difficult. But when I look at the houses and cars my doctor has and the fact that he takes the months of June and December off every year leads me to draw that line south of where he stands.

but I would *never* question the dedication, loyalty and professionalism of our military.

One of the reason we are friends   

Some say, and I agree, that you're truly not grown up until you have a child that depends on you.

I am glad having 3 kids dosen't make you 3X grown up.

Where do you draw the line?

Also drawing the arbitrary line is difficult.

Reasonable fees for reasonable service? My better half is in insurance. Medical malpractice at that. I think she is part of the problem.

Doctor Fees

I think she is part of the problem.

Opps. That might be an awkward dinner conversation.  

The big issue as I see it is that in cases of major medical disaster the expenses can be sufficient to ruin someone's life savings very quickly. The potential of literally running through hundreds of thousands of dollars because something isn't covered by your insurance or you've had financial difficuly that involved a lapse of coverage is very real.

Perhaps doctors are only the tip of the iceberg, but I've seen the multimillion dollar homes that doctors have in Weston, MA. For people with this kind of wealth to hold peoples health hostage for essentially every penny they're worth is unconscionable.

Things like this actually do happen. Probably not statistically often, but they do indeed happen. My heart attack cost over $100,000 dollars. If for some reason insurance didn’t cover it, I could have written the check, but to say the least it would have set my retirement back significantly. Would you like to run the risk of having such a bill?

As of 2001 medical bills caused more than half of all bankruptcies in the United States according to the following study. I can only assume that things are worse six years later.

Medical Bills Leading Cause of Bankruptcy, Harvard Study Finds

Yeah. I'd definitely settle for a reasonable service at a reasonable price. The interesting point of this study was that 3/4 of the people involved were insured at the start of the illness.

We *already have* socialized medicine (i.e. major amounts of public money are invested through public insurance, research funding, etc.); it's just the sloppiest, most half-assed job in the industrialized world.

Still, I at least half-agree with both Mumble and FC, although I'm pretty sure we all have rather different ideas of what it means to "be rich." The article that FC linked was interesting, but I saw no criteria or data to help me evaluate the author's claim that "By far, the majority of physicians are not rich." (I'm guessing that she and I have culture differences like assuming a "normal" phone bill is in the hundreds of dollars or that every family member deserves a personal bathroom as soon as they're out of diapers.)

I know insurance is a big part of the problem, but I remain convinced that too many physicians view their work as a business, not a duty (yes, I know that's a value judgment). My town is a local medical center and I regularly see cars in physicians' reserved parking that cost more than my acre of land with an adequate house on it.

To try looping 'round twoards my OP, the "who's rich" question is extra hard for spoiled US folks b/c our massive nation has such variation in local economies. Mumble is humble about his wages, but for someone down here in North Florida, he sounds very rich--unless you know something about the cost of living in the Boston area. I bought my little home about 8 years ago for less than 60k. I don't think you could get a broom closet for that anywhere near Boston. The land value's gone up a lot recently, but I'm pretty sure I couldn't swap it for a new Hummer H1. I'd have to settle for Jag, which doesn't look too good for sleeping.

I bought my little home about 8 years ago for less than 60k.

To put this in comparison. Recently in Boston, an outdoor parking spot in a back alley sold for $250,000.

open_air_parking_space_in_the_back_bay_for_250000

Mumble is humble about his wages, but for someone down here in North Florida, he sounds very rich--unless you know something about the cost of living in the Boston area.

I was shocked when Mumble revealed his hourly. I wish I could make a third of that an hour as it would help keep the 'monkey' off my back. It seems that anymore all the wife and I do is work to pay bills. I don't mind doing it so long as the payoff is worth it and right now... the payoff is marginal at best.
Jumping back to the health care issues I just want to say that I don't view all doctors/dentists as being in it for the money but I would feel safe saying that I believe about eighty five percent are in the field for that reason, period.
My wife works for a female dentist who constantly demonstrates to me a medical person who only worries about the money. Every patient seems to need bonded core and crown prep, which I believe is around an 800.00 to 1000.00 procedure, per tooth. Now the dentist has a 'schedule' if you would call it that, that shows how many of these 'crown preps' she needs to do a day in order to generate an acceptable revenue. To me, this is just plain wrong. Not only is the patient losing a perfectly healthy tooth, save for a cavity which could have been repaired, but the insurance company is paying a claim that is quite bogus as far as the work wasn't necessary, hence high insurance rates.
Malpractice insurance... good for them. I personally believe that even the malpractice laws need reworked to really hold a doctor/dentist liable for any wrong doing they may cause. The claim by docs that their malpractice insurance rates are killing them doesn't float with me. If you can still keep a trophy wife with all the bling, your summer retreat in New Hampshire, and your small fleet of high priced vehicles which you can't even change your own oil on... then you need to down grade, not cry and pass along your costs to the patient/insurance so willingly.
Which brings my last rant regarding living the 'good' life. I work for a man who owns two dealerships and a bunch of real estate. The two dealerships employ roughly 120 people between them and generate millions a year for him, not quite into the tens, but close. Our health insurance costs us roughly 110.00 a week, plus additional dental around 15.00 a week. The owner claims he pays the bigger half... we think he's full of shit. Nevertheless, this year the new car department was off on sales, big time, and the owner claims that after all was said and done, his paycheck to himself was about 1 million less than last year. Now he forgets all about the prior four years in which he made money hand over fist, which he admitted at every staff meeting for those years. So to make a long story short, this year everyone suffers in the form of no raise (actually once you hit your cap, which is really, really low, your done getting raises anyway)but what does the owner give up? He didn't sell any of his Corvettes, or his SUV's, or give up one of his three homes... hmmmm, I remember a time when I got laid off and was forced to sell many personal family items just so we wouldn't lose our house or car. Who could I 'punish' for my woes? Why did I have to lose family heirlooms and personal items that were near and dear and someone like my boss doesn't? This is where our capitalistic society needs to be revamped or eliminated. These scenarios are quite common and happen in this area almost daily. No one ever said life was fair, no one ever promised me a rose garden, but dammit, enough is enough. There are many people who feel like I do about this, and many more are awakening to these realities. I can only hope that one day soon, I can witness the masses rising up, dragging the rich and oppressive from their ivory towers and then sitting back with some marshmallows as we all watch their palaces burn.

To add a bit of context, I spent the entire year of 2003 unemployed. My COBRA insurance coverage cost $1200 a month. I was out of work for 15 months. During that time medical insurance cost me $18,000, my mortgage alone cost $45,000 and the sum total of unemployment benefits was $13,000. I figure over all that 15 months of unemployment cost me close to $75,000 out of pocket.

$120,000 per year may sound like a lot of money, but with expenses and taxes it basically represents about $25,000 of after tax money that I can save in a year. That's of course if it's not a year that I need to buy a new car for my wife or myself. I don't go overboard with cars. I only buy American cars, my wife and I both drive Chevy Impala's, but still these days that's close to 25K per car. So if each of us keeps our car for eight years that's one new car every 4 years. So my unemployment essentially wiped out everything I had worked for in the previous 4 years. Add the year plus that I was unemployed and that's over five years of my life down the drain.

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't have that many working years left that I can afford to lose.

People in other parts of the country don't understand what it's like here. Since 2001, Massachusetts has lost a net of over 200,000 jobs. Most of these jobs were high tech, high paid jobs that required a highly educated workforce. Actually, it's far worse than the 200,000 jobs, because it's really 300,000 high paid jobs lost and a gain of 100,000 “do you want fries with that” jobs.

I don't think I'd go as far as Evil's "dragging the rich and oppressive from their Ivory towers ..." (I do suspect he's being a bit tongue in cheek here), but I hope this explains why I feel far more empathy towards the “working poor” than I worry about repealing the “death” tax for estates in excess of 2 million dollars.

I don't mean to sound rude Mumble but since there were jobs available in your area why did you not hire on until somethig in your field came along?

We would be alot better of if the IRS was scraped infavor of a tierd consumer tax.

We would be alot better of if the IRS was scraped infavor of a tierd consumer tax.

But then the whole issue of the IRS being totally illegal in the first place would come into play... and I doubt that there's a federal judge presiding anywhere who would slit his own throat to rule against his employer.

I don't mean to sound rude Mumble but since there were jobs available in your area why did you not hire on until somethig in your field came along?

A number of reasons, the first is that in 2003 Massachsetts was actually down a half a million jobs. It's since come back to down "only" 200,000. There really were no jobs in anything close to my field at the time.

Another reason is one word. Overqualified. I couldn't be hired as the greeter at the local Walmart because no one in their right mind could expect that I wouldn't leave the instant something better came along.

A third reason is age discrimination. Who would hire a 50 year old when they can get a kid out of college for a third of the salary. For that matter who would hire the kid out of college when they can get a Pakistani to do the job for a third of what the college kid here can do it.

As I said before, I'm glad that I probably only have another 12 years to go before retirement. Certainly if there's any kids out there looking to start a career in EE or CS, you better change your major, or learn how to wrap a towel around your head and move to India/Pakistan.

or learn how to wrap a towel around your head and move to India/Pakistan.

Hee, hee, hee!

I'm sorry to hear that.

I think Mumble's genes definately need to be added to the gene pool. He will balance out Lindsey Lohan.

EE or CS

Dear Lord! Acronyms! Being a SA in IT maintaining GW, IM, and SAV, you can't IMAGINE how much I hate them!

Uh, what do they mean?

Another reason is one word. Overqualified. I couldn't be hired as the greeter at the local Walmart because no one in their right mind could expect that I wouldn't leave the instant something better came along.

The same thing happened here in the SF Bay Area. People who were highly skilled could not get jobs at the local retailer...Because they didn't want them to leave as soon as they were able to secure a better job. A number of people with lower levels of experience were forced to move out of the area. There is now a huge skill gap. You have die hards, like me, who have been in high tech for 10-15 years or more and some with less than 5 years experience, there is almost no one in between.

A third reason is age discrimination. Who would hire a 50 year old when they can get a kid out of college for a third of the salary. For that matter who would hire the kid out of college when they can get a Pakistani to do the job for a third of what the college kid here can do it.

This is common. And not just the out of county outsourcing. Don't believe the H1-B hype about not being able to find skilled workers. H1-B's are commonly paid ~20% less than a native citizen, and they are then trapped at that wage within the US, unable to seek a fair market wage...They just can't find skilled workers for under market wages.

It's all part of a pattern. The US has been at "full" employment for a number of years now. Companies use outsourcing, H1-B's and illegal labor to keep wages stagnant with the only differentiation being which tool you use to suppress wages depending on the skill level.

Unfortunately, this looks like it is only going to intensify as time passes...

We would be alot better of if the IRS was scraped infavor of a tierd consumer tax.

We need to abolish corporations and make individuals directly responsible for their wealth. That beyond-wild fantasy aside, any reform this radical *must* be built to include B2B transactions.

I'm talking about both things like the latest Lear jet that Tyson or Wal-Mart might buy and things like telecom outfits "selling" bandwidth rights to each other. Putting the entire tax burden on consumers is tantamount to asking to live under the Robber Barons again.

Putting the entire tax burden on consumers is tantamount to asking to live under the Robber Barons again.

Amen to that statement. Unfortunately, I believe we are already pretty much living under the Robber Barons, just a little less aware of it this time. They've done a pretty good job of keeping us 'entertained' and otherwise blind to what is going on right under our noses by utilizing technology in ways that Hitler and his propaganda goons would have drooled over.

I believe we are already pretty much living under the Robber Barons

As an overtrained cynic, I'm glad that I basically disagree with this claim. I think many aspects of "the ownership society" are more like the late 19th century than the early 21st, but I remain hopeful that today's barons, as a class, better appreciate their dependence on the rest of us than did the original Robber Barons.

Plus, there are many more guns, etc., in many more hands..."crisis of overproduction" anyone?