The New School Prayer

WOM

Join Date 01/2002

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The New School Prayer

Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule
For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd.
If scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.

Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise.
Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.

For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all
In silence alone we must meditate,
God's name is prohibited by the state.

We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.
They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.

We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong,
We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong.

We can get our condoms and birth controls,
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.
It's scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
Should I be shot; My soul please take!
Amen

From watching whats on the news now a days, thought this made a lot of sense.

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From the Secretary of Education's explaination of Religious Freedom in US Public Schools: http://www.ed.gov/Speeches/08-1995/religion.html

Schools may not discriminate against private religious expression by students, but must instead give students the same right to engage in religious activity and discussion as they have to engage in other comparable activity. Generally, this means that students may pray in a nondisruptive manner during the school day when they are not engaged in school activities and instruction, subject to the same rules of order that apply to other student speech.

The original post gives the impression that religious expression is not tolerated in public schools. This is incorrect. You can't pray in class, just like you can't talk on the phone, or engage in chess club activities, etc. There are plenty of opportunities everyday for students alone or assembled to pray, chant, handle snakes, whatever.

The Secretary continues:

And the right of religious expression in school does not include the right to have a "captive audience" listen, or to compel other students to participate.

This is the real issue. Unfotunately, only conflict can arise when the only limitation on religious expression is the coercion of others into participating when at the same time a fundamental religious belief of many is that others must be converted, coerced or not.

The belief that "God (in particular the Potestant Chirstian God) is being removed from society, and this is responsible for society's ills" has been thoroughly debunked.

Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies, a study published in The Journal of Religion & Society, found a direct correlation of just the opposite. More religious developed democracies, such as the United States, have much higher incidence of what most would call immoral behavior--ranging from crime to drug abuse, pre-marital sex and divorce. More secular societies had corresponding lower incidences of socially detrimental behavior.

When only the population of the United States is studied, it is found that Evangelical Fundamentalists--those clamoring most vociferously against secularism--have the same frequency of immoral acts as the population as a whole. In some cases, such as domestic abuse and racial bias, Evangelicals are more likely to engage in this behavior than the population as a whole. This is discussed by Ronald J. Sider, himself an Evangelical minister, in his book, The Scandal of the Evangelical Conscience. http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/1/prweb202028.htm

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The cool thing about Christianity is that it's not a religion but about a man whose name is Jesus.

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First, it is no contradiction what I said. I was just using that as an example everyone can understand. I don't kill people, or steal. And I respect those around me. More than I can say for many so-called 'Christians.'

Second, I couldn't agree more rabitrobot.

And third, Christianity may not have been intended to be a religion, but it certainly is now. People nowadays seem to believe more in Christianity than Christ himself, if you know what I mean.

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People nowadays seem to believe more in Christianity than Christ himself, if you know what I mean.

Unfortunately you are right about that. However not all "Christians" are like that, and to look at all Christians as the same is an easy way to not have to look at the truth behind the real Christianity. And once again, let us not confuse God with religion just because many do. They are two different things.

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Lantec

Join Date 07/2003

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More religious developed democracies, such as the United States, have much higher incidence of what most would call immoral behavior--ranging from crime to drug abuse, pre-marital sex and divorce

This corresponds to what time frame. Currently and for the last 30+ years religion has been removed from political/public society in this Country. To say that this is a religious Democracy today is absurd. 50 years ago maybe....100 years ago yes....but today?? Not even close.

Evangelism, like anything else, has extremes. Frankly I don't give a TV minister/evangelist much chance of having his name in the book. For people who use religion as a "business" there's a special reward waiting for them. The other end/extreme would be someone for whom you have to ask "what the special hope that is within them comes from"

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There has never been a war fought because of something non-religious.

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Lantec

Join Date 07/2003

+346

There has never been a war fought because of something non-religious

That's a bit of a sweeping statement. Helen of Troy was not a religious artifact. What was the "religious" content of the World Wars, Vietnam, Korea, French-Indian War, American Civil War (does the Panama Canal thing count). Not to say that there have not been wars based on reigion, I just think your statement is a slightly inaccurate.

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Hum, I'am somewhat on in years, but what about the Spanish/American war and the Mexican/American.?

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Hum, I'am somewhat on in years, but what about the Spanish/American war and the Mexican/American.?

Not to mention the American Revolutionary War, wich was caused by no representation in England. Freedom of religion was a benifit of that war, not the cause.

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Lantec

Join Date 07/2003

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Spanish/American war and the Mexican/American

Could've been a failed attempt to convert the Catholic majority to Protestant.

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There has never been a war fought because of something non-religious

Of course there have been wars over religion, but the majority are about money, power, greed and the control of land and people. Your statement is more than slightly inaccurate.

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Nah, in one we wanted the land.

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NightTrainthedark

Join Date 07/2003

+255

The US didn't declare war against Saddam over because of religion. Fear yes, but not religion.

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You could say all wars were fought over religion, or none at all. Remember how we were taught the American Civil War was fought over slavery? It's all in the interpretation.

War isn't the issue here anyway. Obviously, anyone who starts wars, is ignoring basic tenants of just about all of the big religions.

The issue here is freedom to practice, or not to practice religion. I choose not to practice, and I don't want people telling me I have to, or saying to me that I'm wrong and will turn to religion in the future. That is an insult to my ideas and quite disrespectful.

People have many, many times a day they can pray or do whatever they want to do. If you think people are better off with religion, and think it should be forced or at least encouraged, than get an amendment to the Consitution passed.

And for whoever was saying there is less religion going around now, than 50 years ago is greatly mistaken. Forced prayer was taken out of school, and rightfully so. Other than that, things are pretty much the same, if not more religious. Members of government use religion more, and religion is invading science. There is more religion in movies, television, and music. Basically, we're constantly surrounded by something that has religion in it.

Another thing: keep in mind the founding fathers were not Christian, but rather deist. Meaning they belived there was one God, and that's it. No Jesus, no Bible, just God. In fact, it is well established Ben Franklin attended meetings of the first Satanist organizations. I'm sure none of them would be too pleased with what is going on today, in terms of religion.

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Amen.

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Lantec

Join Date 07/2003

+346

You could say all wars were fought over religion, or none at all.

No....in all good conscience "I" could not say that. I cannot "interpret" day for night.

And for whoever was saying there is less religion going around now, than 50 years ago is greatly mistaken

I'm only 43, but I can tell you from for certain that there is a lot less religion in government, the movies and television than just 30 years ago. When do you think all those Christmas specials were made. Mel gibson releases his movie n Christ and the Country just about went into convulsions over the politically incorrect depiction of Jews. None of this happened over The Greatest Story Ever Told or Ben Hur or the dozens of other movies of the era.

As for Government...your so far off base I won't even respond.

Another thing: keep in mind the founding fathers were not Christian, but rather deist. Meaning they belived there was one God, and that's it. No Jesus, no Bible, just God. In fact, it is well established Ben Franklin attended meetings of the first Satanist organizations.

What a load of crap. You talk about insulting your cherished beliefs. I don't know where you came by these "facts" but I would bet they're either the latest "politically correct" version of history taught in public schools or just some internet blogger bull.

I will concede one point....there is more religion in science today than there used to be. That's mostly due to the fact that science has been verifying what was previously thought to be "fanciful notions" "mythical places" and "unreliable accounts" in the bible. I'd point you to the National Geogrphic article on the genetic research that puts "Eve" at having lived several thousand years ago instead of several hundred thousand as previously stated as fact by the Scientific Community.

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More than I can say for many so-called 'Christians.'

And Athiests for that matter, or any other religious or non-religious affiliation. "Christians" are not perfect and neither is anyone else. Next, you'll be saying that the African-American population does all the killing and stealing in America. We are all flawed in different ways. Adamness, you obviously have a problem with the "Christian" religion. And, as a Christian, I have a problem with religion as well. Religion is rules. But faith in Christ is about relationship. Relationship with God, His Son and The Holy Spirit. Religion, without relationship, is the cause of wars. Take the time to get to know your neighbor and you'l have a much harder time killing him. Religion is trash. Faith and relationship with the big 3 and each other is what it is all about.

The challenge Christ puts before every Christian is to love others as yourself. That is where we as Christians fail. It is a big challenge.

The thing I don't understand is this belief that you can't have any religion to have religious freedom. I have no problem praying to Christ while the guy next to me prays to Allah and the guy next to him reading a book or talking with a friend. Removing all of it is not the answer. That is simply a discrimination against all who claim some type of belief in a higher power. Teach your children to relate to each other and they will get along with thier peers. I respect those who don't believe in Christ, they are wrong, but that doesn't mean I don't respect them. God knows, I'm wrong all the time. But my wife and kids still respect me as a husband and father. Why, because of thier relationship with me.

Sometimes all you have to do is listen.

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You are correct, Sir. Also, education. Which, sorry to say, is sorely lacking in too many people.

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I would comment, but the fact that this bothers so many people on both sides of the fence deters me. I am actually sad about the conflicts this topic causes.

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There were a small number of people talking about the anti-semitism in 'Passion of the Christ.' Again, this is an example of people in the majority acting as if they're under constant attack.

And no, I have no problem with the Christian religion, nor what Jesus preached. I have a big problem with the followers, though. I don't tell people why I am an atheist, or they they should be atheists, and I wish people of faith would grant me the same courtesy.

And I don't know what you're talking about, accusing me of being a racist. Don't make wild accusations.

And Lantec, saying you can't interpret day for night, well, what can I say. Maybe I misunderstood that, but if not, learn to think for yourself. There is nothing wrong with seeing things in your own, individual way. And what bible-proving-science were you talking about? Usually real science is misinterpreted and skewed in favor of the Bible being truth. Just look at that Dr. Dino guy.

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Adamness, I am not accusing you, by any means, of being racist. But, singling out a specific group of people as being more problematic than others is a road to racism. I am also not trying to sell you my belief. I respect your choice to do as you wish.

Again, this is an example of people in the majority acting as if they're under constant attack.

I don't tell people why I am an atheist, or they they should be atheists, and I wish people of faith would grant me the same courtesy.

It would appear to me that you are the one who feels "Under attack."

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I do feel under attack. That's my point. And I feel much more uneasy since like-minded people are a small minority in this country, as well as the world, though our numbers are growing. I often hear about how the secularists and atheists are ruining the country.

And probably every group is more problematic than others, depending on what you're looking at. In terms of what we're talking about, religion is problematic. There is nothing wrong with singling out a group, so long as it is based on something rational. I single out Christianity, since it is the predominant faith in America, and since many of it's adherents are so vocal about their faith, and encouraging others to join it. If I were to say black people are more prone to crime than others, it would not be based on anything rational, but rather ignorance, which is why I do not believe that to be true, and why I am not a racist.

If you want to know more of where I'm coming from, read some stuff on my website, Thinkbulb.com.

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Adamness...You really are very young. (That is NOT an insult) I read some of the stuff on your website. It would not be appropriate to comment on it here, but I really think you have it all wrong. However, I commend you for not being afraid to voice your opinion. (I feel the need to remind you that you can voice your opinion because of the country you live in)

To someone like myself, what you are saying is not, by any means, rational. So to single us out, by your definition, is inappropriate.

Bottom line is this...There are a lot of bad Christians out there. There are a lot of bad people out there. Christians are no better or worse than the rest of the people out there. We just have a faith that you disagee with. I also don't know how you could speak rationally about Christianity until you really understand what Christianity truly is.

Let me close this evening with this, forgiveness is the center of my faith. And if the people in the world would find true, real, sincere, forgiveness for when they have been wronged, we would all breathe a lot easier. This is why Christ died, this is why I live. Forgiveness is a good thing. It's when a person applies his own methodology to forgiveness and calls it religion that it becomes a bad thing. Even an atheists is some type of religion.

One last thing, I truly respect your opinion and your right to voice that opinion. I don't look at you with distain but rather with honor. Again, I agree with you, I do not see you as a raceist. I just think your wrong about a lot of things. Normally I would say God Bless you Adam, but for now I'll say, "Peace be with you."

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How can you seperate the 10 commandements from He who is the author of them?

Actually many historians and theologians believe that the 10 commandments were heavily inspired by the egyptian book of the dead, which existed long before the exodus and the passing down of the commandments from God.

My point is that the values expressed in the ten commandments are not exclusive to the God of the Bible, nor did they originate in the Bible. Therefore, one can recognize the importance of living life by these beliefs outside of Christianity or Judaism.

From Wikipedia;

historians have argued that the Ten Commandments originated from ancient Egyptian religion, and postulate that the Biblical Jews borrowed the concept after their Exodus from Egypt. Chapter 125 of the Book of the Dead (the Papyrus of Ani) includes a list of things to which a man must swear in order to enter the afterlife. These sworn statements bear a remarkable resemblance to the Ten Commandments in their nature and their phrasing. These statements include "not have I defiled the wife of man," "not have I committed murder," "not have I committed theft," "not have I lied," "not have I cursed god," "not have I borne false witness," and "not have I abandoned my parents." The Book of the Dead has additional requirements, and, of course, doesn't require worship of YHWH.

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Only by reading this thread shows how easy people begin to argument with anger, in the name of God and religion.

We live in a modern world, where everyone should feel free to believe or not to believe in whatever they want. Common sense and respect for other people doesn't necessary need a religion.

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