Please Stardock... stop the idea of nerfing the Jugs

There's balancing and then there's nerfing.

I don't think anyone wants to make the juggernaughts as weak as a level one moster, but as they are now, they can be overpowering, especially since one of the Sovereigns can crank them out like he has a Jug factory.

As I posted in the change log thread....

Don't be fooled, it's really not that big of a nerf, as I explained here: https://forums.elementalgame.com/437525

The idea is to make the traits more interesting so that you'd have more varied Jugs designs (which is a good thing). They are only slightly weaker primarily due to brutal nature, but it barely changes anything because they are already a beast. Going from a default of 60 atk to a default of 50 atk doesn't do that much with maul activating. You'll still destroy pretty much everything you come accoss except for the biggest beasts.

The Love/Hate of the Jugs...

More than nerfing them, I would work a bit on the traits, to give them more variety. There is a good post with that.

Actually, the 3 traits are in a way that there is no current choice. Pick them all, so the only choice is give them a big axe, or give them a big sword+a big shield.

The results is that all jugs are the same: extremely powerfull and BORING.

I think that at least we could have traits in a way that emulate the paths, as an excuse to design specialized jugs:

a defender jug --> Tons of HP

a warrior jug --> + damage + armour

an assassin jug? Well, I think all of them are now... Maybe the maul could go here

a mage jug --> like the henchmen, give them a book of magic or at least, a basic spell (fire arrow, slow, blind,...for example)

From the numbers, you really won't notice much of a difference.

Have you checked the numbers? Most of the numbers are for training increase. The only thing that is really decreased is the brutal nature moving the damage from +100% to +50%. Other than that it is just an increase in training with traits... the base Jug with NO traits comes out cheaper. What do you refer to when you say they are nerfing Juggernauts?

Jugs traits increased about 130 in total training cost.  Jugs base cost was decreased 150.  So they are actually a bit cheaper than they used to be.  As parrotmath said the only real change was that brutal nature was reduced 50% and their are more options for variety when designing your own juggernauts.

The +1 move bonus for Juggernauts suggested in https://forums.elementalgame.com/437525 is a huge bonus.  Was anyone really fighting them toe-to-toe?

It is a good bonus, but you'd have to switch out brutal nature, maul, or ignore pain to get it (since you can only pick 3 traits). If you say you would, then I think my suggestions just succeeded.

To be honest I'm a bit disappointed that Harvester didn't make it in. It's a good alternative to Ignore pain depending on how well you handle your units.

I just builded full archer rain of death on upon them. they (Jugs) die easier, but without full army of archer, they (Jugs) are very deadly, but every should had a weakness...Juggerauts is strong in melee, try stay out of Juggerauts's melee range if you can, force on them first if no enemie deady mage, had lot of archer if that faction depend war on you and do building a Juggerauts, but thing is that Juggerauts do great boom Power rating, make more likeky depend war on you.... Of course, I once fight those 5 of Juggerauts in city....I had 5 to 6 longbow archer with 2 to 3 hero who had a archer as well...I do and did taken a faction "archer" bouns, replace normal bow, far better faster, had 75% overcome densce, ect...

Edit: I don't know I do not builded Jugs myself, as I see A.I build lot of Jugs much faster than my archer troop, it's seem taken longer for me to get archer up than Jugs, if I want best and get more number...having a deadly archer is too long time reseached with max number of troop with best bow with well choice trait...they are deady, but on other hand, I'm not sure what to do in early game if that case you can't reseach all the way to archer, best archer in end of tech tree...same for number of troop in civil reseach as well as they are end of tech tree..

if You knew those faction are building Jugs, you might want drop your plan and go for archer and unlock number of troop number as soon as you can...

Oh, if you don't had a "archer" trail and normal bow cost metal, and not had metal, normal bow taken much longer and lost a turn, gave Jugs chance to kill your "normal" archer...I guess you screwed, you had to find other way...I did try cast fireball or fire dart, but they don't do a job, they don't do much damage and taken 2 turn to recast and had a mana cost lot..at early to middle of game...

Actually, the easiest way to deal with jug armies is to build tons of cheap throwaway units and throw them at the Jugs. If you send a unit in between 2 jugs, them attacking the throwaway ends up hurting themselves. After a few sacrifice unit, the jugs are easily killed if they didn't kill themselves. Slaves are great for this.

kmkenpo,

If I read your post correctly it seems that you don't wanted Jugs changed because you like the challenge of defeating a powerful foe. Fair enough, that's a good point.

However, the trouble is that Trog players can build Jugs and as a unit/strategy it is massively more powerful than many (most?) others.  You rush the appropriate technology, churn out hordes of Jugs because they are cheap to build, and generally win the game. The game loses a bit when there are strategies like this which are just head and shoulders above other paths because you either (a) follow it and feel like you've achieved a somewhat hollow victory (b) ignore it, in which case it's not really adding anything to the game.

So I'm all for roaming monsters to be horrendously powerful juggernauts, but I'm against one player built troop being massively over-powered relative to others. If they stay as they are, they really should have a much higher production cost to justify how powerful they are (five times more?).

Anyway, just my thoughts.

Or they could be at end of reseach tree...

Well... poot. I hate it when people make good arguments. Still, I like the whole options thing in a menu, if nothing else, simply because it sounds good.

Have a blessed day,

-kmkenpo