WotS - Wail of the Sacrificed - General Balancing discussion

There has been a lot of discussion about WotS in several threads lately. For a good balancing discussion that can be easy followed by the Developers I think it would be a good idea to have it together in one place.

So what do we know about Wail of the Sacrificed?

- It requires 7 temples of harmony to get access to its research.

- It requires an owned planet with a temple of communion on it.

- When activated it kills your planet but it does instantly deal 20 damage per killed population point to all adjacent gravity wells, be it planets, phenomena or stars.

- Currently there is a possible bug with it, that makes the Enduring devotion upgrade ineffective, so you loose the planet, no matter what.

- It deals reasonable amounts of damage on dwarf, vulcanic and ice planets and tremendous damage on desert or terran worlds, it is  however entirely useless on asteroids.

- It does not harm own or allied ships or structures.

It has the following advantages:

- No warning, no escape... you hit the button and the enemy ships in adjacent gravity wells either survive the amount of damage or they all die.

- Its "one devastating hit" damage type will usually get hostiles with their shield mitigation at minimum, drastically improving the actual damage received.

- A terran or or desert planet at a good spot can threaten several gravity wells

- Damage of dwarf planets is enough to kill most early game fleets, keep that in mind when attacking an AR in the eco spot.

- Population research or planet bonuses can increase the damage potential, so can TEC envoys.

- Can buy you some time even against capital only fleets, as they are considerable damaged with the effect. They probably wont be so eager to attack because of that.

- If you own several high population worlds around a star you can make the star itself a zone of total death. Multiple wails will wipe out about anything, especially if you wait a few seconds between them until shield mitigation is low again.

- Can be used to support your fleet by decimating the enemy before entering firing range or as a last resort to turn the tide of the battle. Although effectivity depends on overall enemy shield mitigation once the battle is joined.

- Can be a last resort defense. When you are nearly defeat in a team game and the enemy would normally wipe you out with brute force in no time leaving your allies alone, they are going to be a lot more hesitant in steamrolling you when your capital is wail capable. They will either ignore you, allowing you to support your allies longer with money or send fewer ships to you. Those fewer ships will take longer to kill you, meaning that those fewer ships are not something your allies have to worry about for some time. Or they underestimate you and "forget" about it because they are certain of victory... well there is nothing like wailing their main fleet with your homeworld as a "passing gift"...

- Can be used to level up your titan quickly. Depending on the circumstances a few more levels on your Titan may easily be worth a terran/dessert planet and you can use it on fleets where it normally would stand no chance alone, so no lost experience to some capital ships.

 

- Is often basically free as you would have built a ToC anyway.

 

Of course there a some disadvantages too:

 

- Without a high population world in the right spot, it is totally useless.

 

- Is is costly, not only you loose the entire planet with all upgrades (possible bug with enduring devotion) but you are also loosing considerable amounts of tax income. While trade is the main income in later stages of the game, unless you are already winning money is often going to be still an issue.

 

- It can only be used in long intervalls. Not only that you have to recolonize and reupgrade the planet, but population grows quite slowly. So it takes a very long time until wail is on a damage dealing level again... time in which your foes probably will try to take the planet from you, denying any future use. And so it wont work well on highly contested planets that change owner every 5 minutes...

 

- Capital ships will usually survive it and there is nothing that stops the surviving capital ships from destroying your temple of communion or bombing your planet back into the stone age. .

 

- A hostile Titan can and will destroy your temple before the main fleet jumps into range, unless the gravity well is heavily fortified, but that is money that you wont have in your fleet.


- Enemies will simple move their fleet in groups... making the use far less interesting.

 

- TEC Novalith will kill keep your population level too low for wail to be effective

 

- Kostura Cannons and phase stabilizers technology make it so that Vasari are never in the need to enter any dangerous gravity wells Not to mention they can easily kill the planet and the temple.

 

- Even the UP Advent Loyalists have a last resort... with their Titans Repossesion the threat is immediatly gone.

 

- You have to see the enemy fleet either with scouting or Eyes of the converted and even more important, you have to see them in time... You wont get any attack messages like TEC with a Red Button Starbase would... you have to see the enemy forming up, something that depending on map and current game pace can be easy to overlook.

 

- Wail does not do any damage to its own gravity well (It would be insanely op otherwise) so once the enemy is there you have lost.

 

- It needs an expensive level 7 research in the harmony tree, something that you dont usually get to quickly.

 

 

 

My balancing suggestions:

 

First off a warning: It is not going to be easy. Make it to powerful and it is op, but make it to weak only by a slight margin and it is totally useless

Second, the effect could use a bit tuning. Instead of instantly working, there should be a VISIBLE shockwave travelling at the phase lanes. That would END all screams of cheating from newer players. Depending on the speed of the shockwaves, an enemy would have at least a bit of time to rescue his fleet, making the use of wail more risky. Right now you can use it the moment the enemy tries to jump out, doing maximum damage and maximum weakening of his fleet should he invade you.

 

Perhaps the damage on large population planets could be lowered but in turn the damage from low population objects increased. Or what about giving it a secondary ability... like disabling enemy ships or what about a modified version of repulsion? All surviving ships of the (weakened wail) are moved closer to the planet.... ruining fleet cohesion and increasing the time for an attack again.

 

 

 

That are my thoughts, what are your? :maybe:

40,084 views 32 replies
Reply #1 Top

I appreciate the big summary you did but personally I don't feel like repeating myself all over again from other recent threads. All the recent comments in other threads on WotS were also really already a 2nd round of discussing it, the first being from the beta. There should be a patch sometime in the next week or two - I'd rather wait to see what balance changes it brings since devs have probably already decided on major changes by now.

Reply #2 Top

Quoting DirtySanchezz, reply 6
...  In other news, Wail of the Sacrifice (which should probably be completely removed from the game) wasn't nerfed either.
End of DirtySanchezz's quote

 

Removal is not an option.  Balancing it is not exactly easy... I will admit that.

 

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 23

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 17A better way I think is to not attack with your whole fleet at once. Because the time to set up wail again is so long it makes player reluctant to use it on anything but a killing blow. If a good target doesn't appear, they'll either have to use it on a force small enough to replace or fail to use it at all.

An advent eco has no problem getting wail quickly...and unlike the the TEC, AL, and VL, the AR eco player can easily defend many of their planets without having to fleet up....LF and/or Corvette rushes can easily be stopped dead in their tracks by wailing even moon/volcanic combos...at that point in the game, having to replace that large of a fleet is a huge setback, and it is an awesome protection that no other faction has while ecoing...

Wail may not be viable for frontliners but it is easily viable for eco players (easier to get than SttC or SB mobilization) and unless they have awful planets, it generally makes them immune to any rush...a determined attack with caps/titans and/or carriers will still be effective to a point, but by then the eco player has already gotten to feed a lot, get their titan, and in general prepare for fleeting up...

FYI, a double tap of wail from two high pop planets can wipe low level caps...


Quoting sareth01, reply 20Also, you don't always have to build your fleet up next to the enemy gravity well.

Hardly relevant....on some maps, the only way to get to an AR world is to put your fleet within "wail range"...and in some cases, triads or quads of planets can't be attacked (or even approached) because of overlapping "wail ranges"...at some point, your ships are going to have to actually attack, and right now the only true counter to wail is superweapons...shield bestowal and an SB can make sniping culture centers extremely difficult late game, your "50 corvette rush" strategy really only works if no defending fleet is close by and the other player completely neglected defenses...

 
End of Seleuceia's quote



Yes, if left alone for some time, advent can indeed field wail in the early medium game. I myself taught more than one over aggressive player a hard lesson about "keeping your distance".

 

No sane player will sacrifice a planet to destroy a low level cap unless he is truely desperate. Cap ships level 1 - 4 are easily replaced and are rarely worth even a single planet.




Quoting sareth01, reply 24

Hardly relevant....on some maps, the only way to get to an AR world is to put your fleet within "wail range"...and in some cases, triads or quads of planets can't be attacked (or even approached) because of overlapping "wail ranges"...at some point, your ships are going to have to actually attack, and right now the only true counter to wail is superweapons...shield bestowal and an SB can make sniping culture centers extremely difficult late game, your "50 corvette rush" strategy really only works if no defending fleet is close by and the other player completely neglected defenses...

Seleucia, the perfect defense requires a lot of resources.

Yes, if you have been unable to thwart your opponent so they have full tactical slot defenses, a large fleet, wail, lots of economy, starbases at every world, and a titan, you are pretty much screwed vs. the advent rebels.  This means that your strategy failed.  There is still hope however, as they have to actually beat you.  So you can use your bag of cheap tricks to really try to blow the crap out of the advent fleet.  If I remember correctly titans are quite resilient and can take out defenses pretty well, and can even withstand super strong weapons like wail.  So once you kill the advent rebel fleet using your bag of tricks, you can kill the advent rebel defenses with your titan of choice.

Luckily, most games (like 80-90%), wail won't even come up.  There are a lot of random situations that have to occur.

Sometimes wail is extremely strong positionally(not so common).  Other times wail is impractical because you are under far to much pressure to even go that route (quite common).

Now when it starts to become the mid game, things start to change.  Some noobs might be dead, someone might have made a big mistake.

The thing is, every faction has their super ability.  Without wail of the sacrificed, the advent rebels are really a gimp faction.

....
End of sareth01's quote




 

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 13



That's your opinion. The problem with Wail is that there is no consensus on if its even OP, unlike VR, let alone what to do about it. I don't know if any more discussion would help, but personally I agree with sareth that maybe reducing it to 15 damage per population would be good. Its not anywhere near as OP as jumping starbases right now IMO.


.
End of GoaFan77's quote

 

20 Damage per population point:

Terran: 6440

Desert: 4940

Ice: 3200

Vulcanic: 1400

Dwarf: 1000

Asteroid: 400


in comparsion:

15 damage per population point:


Terran:  4830

Desert: 3705

Ice: 2400

Vulcanic: 1050

Dwarf: 750



Asteroid: 300

The only planet type that does really suffer is the Volcanic one. All others will still kill even durable cruisers.

 

 






Quoting bilun, reply 17
I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Any changes to wail or the Eradica should be VERY carefully considered.  The Advent Rebels are and always have been in a very odd position balance wise- Wail and the Eradica are a bit OP without a doubt- But here's the thing: they are also the only reason the Advent Rebels are competitive.

When it comes down to it, under the surface the Advent Rebels suffer from pretty much all the same issues that have made the advent loyals underpowered.  The chief differences has really been that the Advent Rebels have two absolute bombs(Wail & the Eradica) that more or less cover up their deficiencies.   Frankly if these two tools were actually perfectly balanced the Advent Rebels would not be competitive.  

All that said as I've said before I'm not principally against nerfing Eradica/Wail- No faction should be left leaning on a crutch forever.  But nerfs to these things should be handled with a light touch and ideally be accompanied by buffs to the less powerful advent rebel techs.

What it really comes down to is while they possess somewhat OP tools, the faction overall isn't really OP.  Changes should focus on spreading out and redistributing their strength so that they don't need those OP tools to be competitive(of course accompanied by reasonable nerfs to those tools)- they should not be focused only on said nerfs.

 

 

That said when the time to nerf Wail does come, I'm not convinced reducing the damage is the way to go.  Reducing the damage y any reasonable cut will likely only really spare carriers from the Wail....and the last thing we need is MORE incentive to just mass carriers- That's just counterproductive tot he goal of having more viable types of late game frigates.  Honestly I'm of the opinion the key to countering Wail should lie in attacking the advent rebels on multiple fronts.

 One way this could be accomplished is by having Wail just affect a single adjacent targeted gravity well(rather then all adjacent).  This means an attack on two fronts will always require 2 wails to knock out.  It also removes potential for collateral damage to adjacent enemy planets when a wail is done chiefly to knock out a fleet in another well.

Goa's idea of having Wail just not hit your own adjacent gravity wells also has potential I think.

 

 
.....
End of bilun's quote





I could not have said it better myself.



Imho the following changes would make wail a little more bearable without taking away a powerful weapon of the Advent:

- First of all, dont make it instant. Right now if you hit the button it is over already. That makes it very risk free for the Advent player to wait to the last possible moment. And it causes issues online because newer players dont understand at all what happened to their fleet. Not to mention such an ability deserves more graphical love. I mentioned it before... make the shockwave or whatever travel across the phase lanes.... it would not only look awesome but it would give your enemy at least a chance of running away

OR/AND

- To increase that running away tendency, what about changing the one time sledge hammer hit into damage over time? The total damage done could be the same, or possible increased to give even more incentive to leave that gravity well asap. This damage over time would only be in the gravity wells that right now get the wail damage. This would force the Advent to trigger it earlier too.... right now i just wait before he jumps.... I cant do that anymore if it does damage over time. The damage should be high enough to hurt... but low enough to allow the more durable frigates to escape if they are close to the edge of the gravity well.

This means, if the Advent waited to long using wail he will have a only lightly damaged invasion fleet knocking at his door... when leaving the affected gravity well the damage over time dies immediatly...

Reply #3 Top

I am strongly against a "damage over time" change....there are enough problems timing abilities during the late game due to lag and having lots of things to manage...furthermore, damage over time doesn't prevent point turns in gravity wells and allows things like armistice or shield regen to basically mitigate the effects....

Also, one reason why instant actions are more powerful than over time actions (when it comes to damage, anyway) is because of shield mitigation...generally speaking, wail is hitting a fleet with ~15% shield mitigation...convert it to damage over time, and after several seconds every ship is at ~60% shield mitigation...keep that in mind....

Anyway, it is my belief that wail should simply affect only the planet that the culture center is at...that prevents "overlapping wails" and allows you to actually attack/approach an AR player...still extremely powerful (comparable to a well placed SB with RB) but by no means OP like it is now...

What I've seen a lot of is "If wail/chastic burst is nerfed, then AR need buffs elsewhere"....what I haven't seen is a lot of suggestions for where to buff the AR if wail/chastic burst is nerfed...

Reply #4 Top

Quoting Ekko_Tek, reply 1
I appreciate the big summary you did but personally I don't feel like repeating myself all over again from other recent threads.
End of Ekko_Tek's quote

It's a pain, but if you want people to change anything, you got to repeat stuff a lot. Just look at politics and teaching

 

I agree wail is overpowered because it has no warning, and given the right map conditions, almost impossible to approach without the right set up thanks to overlapping wail on high population planets. If both of these things are changed, I believe wail would be much more fair being worth the substantial cost and risk while still giving a very good reward when done well.

The warning is probably going to be the hardest part. There is no real way to set it up without the devs changing the engine to allow a superweapon like warning. Unfortunately, that will require some combination of new pictures, particles and/or voice acting, which the Devs probably though they were done with. Also too much warning could make this entire ability ineffective.

To prevent the overlapping wail planets, I completely support it only working on neutral or enemy planets. This still allows the player to have a huge deterrent to attack by maintaining wail's range on border planets and allows it to flush out Entrenched targets by taking the world next to them, without the possibility of map layout making a position totally impossible to attack.

Some have suggested making it target a single gravity well in addition to this, but that only really helps if you are trying to attack a wail planet from multiple fronts, which while it would be a cool strategic weakness, it also needs an engine change, while simply making it not work on any friendly planet could be done with a minor file change, and doesn't even need to wait for the next major patch.

Reply #5 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 5
The warning is probably going to be the hardest part.
End of GoaFan77's quote

If it only targets the well that the culture center is in, a simple particle/sound effect plus a short delay time would be enough...

Reply #6 Top

I'm not sure what the point of a warning would be though if it was changed to the same well since the damage applies to any enemy ships anywhere in the well. Unless the delay was long enough to allow you to phase jump out. In which case, it would be a pointless ability. I guess the warning could at least alert you that you suddenly had a lot of excess fleet supply to put to use again...

Reply #7 Top

Maybe there's a misunderstanding...for me, "warning" is an effect (particle and/or sound, but preferably both) that indicates an ability is being used...for example, when an SB uses RB, there is a short delay time and a particle effect....granted, if you aren't looking at the gravity well you won't see, but if you aren't paying attention, your loss...

Again, I'm coming from the mindset that wail should only affect the gravity well containing the actual culture center....I suppose some people still want it affecting  neighboring planets though, in which case a particle/sound effect occuring at the planet with the culture center wouldn't do much good...

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 8
Maybe there's a misunderstanding...for me, "warning" is an effect (particle and/or sound, but preferably both) that indicates an ability is being used...for example, when an SB uses RB, there is a short delay time and a particle effect....granted, if you aren't looking at the gravity well you won't see, but if you aren't paying attention, your loss...

Again, I'm coming from the mindset that wail should only affect the gravity well containing the actual culture center....I suppose some people still want it affecting  neighboring planets though, in which case a particle/sound effect occuring at the planet with the culture center wouldn't do much good...
End of Seleuceia's quote

 

You do realize that if Wail does affect the planet with the culture center, that pretty much makes the planet unattackable?

 

Right now you can sneak by the wail area.... or send groups of units though it to offer no window for a crushing blow.

 

However, if the culture center planet is the target, you can no longer do that. Anything but your main fleet can be crushed by the defenses (which in this case any smart advent player will no doubt build) and if you jump your main fleet to the planet to deal with the defenses, he will use Wail on it.... dealing you a devastating blow.

 

 

There is actually an quite nice sound and particle effect on the planet you use Wail. Naturally right now it isnt noticable by your enemies... and even if they would see it. It is to late then because it is an instant effect that can be seen on your ships briefly.... before they die.

Reply #9 Top

This discussion reminds me of the days of Missile Barrage being "OP". And all the devs did to that was make a stronger warning for it.

Reply #10 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 8
Maybe there's a misunderstanding...for me, "warning" is an effect (particle and/or sound, but preferably both) that indicates an ability is being used...for example, when an SB uses RB, there is a short delay time and a particle effect....granted, if you aren't looking at the gravity well you won't see, but if you aren't paying attention, your loss...

Again, I'm coming from the mindset that wail should only affect the gravity well containing the actual culture center....I suppose some people still want it affecting  neighboring planets though, in which case a particle/sound effect occuring at the planet with the culture center wouldn't do much good...
End of Seleuceia's quote

The reason the red button warning matters though is that in theory you can move your ships outside of its explosion radius. Wail's explosion radius currently is anything in the entire gravity well so even if it affected just the well the temple was in, what would be the point? Not like you can move anywhere safe after the warning goes off...a warning would need to go with a more limited AOE of the wail blast for it to serve a purpose.

Reply #11 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 8


Again, I'm coming from the mindset that wail should only affect the gravity well containing the actual culture center....I suppose some people still want it affecting neighboring planets though, in which case a particle/sound effect occuring at the planet with the culture center wouldn't do much good...
End of Seleuceia's quote

I don't really agree, unless the goal is to get the AI to use wail I think it should be avoided. You could put a particle effect at the target planets too, not just the one with the culture center, which would be better than nothing, but unlike missile barrage or red button where you should at least know a battle was going on in the same gravity well, a notification would be ideal as this ability is triggered from a different gravity well.

Quoting Ekko_Tek, reply 7
I'm not sure what the point of a warning would be though if it was changed to the same well since the damage applies to any enemy ships anywhere in the well. Unless the delay was long enough to allow you to phase jump out. In which case, it would be a pointless ability. I guess the warning could at least alert you that you suddenly had a lot of excess fleet supply to put to use again...
End of Ekko_Tek's quote

I think there should be a slight delay to allow ships already at the edge of the gravity well to jump, and for abilities like armistice/group shield etc. to be manually activated. It would also be a big help for newer players who don't get to see what wail is capable of offline and get creamed by it online, often times just thinking their ships blew up for no good reason.

Also I do not believe the Enduring Devotion not saving planets you use wail on is a bug. It used to work perfectly fine, but a patch in the beta changed it, and I doubt that was unintentional.

Reply #12 Top

Yup good points on Armistice, group shield, etc. A warning would at least allow you to use abilities like that. What happens with Armistice and Wail currently? The damage is applied in the well where Armistice is but comes from a different well. Even if Wail was switched to the same well as the temple, does Armistice result in the Advent just sacrificing a planet for nothing?

Reply #13 Top

Quoting Ekko_Tek, reply 13
Yup good points on Armistice, group shield, etc. A warning would at least allow you to use abilities like that. What happens with Armistice and Wail currently? The damage is applied in the well where Armistice is but comes from a different well. Even if Wail was switched to the same well as the temple, does Armistice result in the Advent just sacrificing a planet for nothing?
End of Ekko_Tek's quote

Well I'm not sure if anyone has tried it in the current setup, but yes Armistice makes all ships under its influence invincible. Doesn't matter where the damage comes from. So if you pull that off right you save all your ships near the Akkan.

Reply #14 Top

Quoting Ekko_Tek, reply 11
Not like you can move anywhere safe after the warning goes off...a warning would need to go with a more limited AOE of the wail blast for it to serve a purpose.
End of Ekko_Tek's quote

It was my understanding the warning was simply so that people would know why their ships suddenly died or took serious damage...

Quoting ARESIV, reply 9
You do realize that if Wail does affect the planet with the culture center, that pretty much makes the planet unattackable?
End of ARESIV's quote

I do understand this...but let's compare that to the current situation...

Consider a single terran, desert, or ice planet...under the current system, any ship within 1 jump of that planet is within "wail range" of a high pop world...barring a kostura jump, this also prevents a large fleet from getting to the terran itself, so in essence the current system makes the terran and neighboring gravity wells impossible to attack...

If, however, wail only affects the planet itself, then only that planet is "impossible" to attack...

Let us consider other situations, such as trying to trickle forces through gravity wells...in the current situation, you may have to trickle forces through a gravity well "in wail range" in order to get to another gravity well...if however wail only affects the one planet, you no longer have to do this...

Let us now throw in superweapons and again consider the current situation...wail overlapping means that you may need multiple superweapons in order to approach a planet....if wail only affects the one planet though, then you would never need more than one superweapon to attack one planet....

There is only one situation where my proposition actually makes wail stronger...if a player doesn't scout or doesn't pay attention to the nearby gravity wells, they may not realize you have a fleet nearby "in wail range"...if you jump to the planet, only an overlapping wail would be able to hit your fleet....as far as I'm concerned, this situation is irrelevant: abilities shouldn't be balanced based off the assumption that players are dumb or not paying attention...

 

Reply #15 Top

I have to say that I am in a minority on Wail. I myself mostly play TEC, and I therefore do not play with Wail. I play against Wail. At first, I found it totally overwhelming. But now I have adapted strategies and compensations, and I find that Wail, though certainly powerful, adds an extra dimension of strategy to the game. You can't just "make a huge fleet and kill everyone". You have to think more, you have to anticipate more, most of the new so-called "OP" things require this adaptation, in fact, IMHO.

Ways to work against wail:

1. Novalith cannon. Kill population. Then jump to attack.

2. Send in your fleet in waves of 25% so that no Wail will take out your whole fleet.

3. Send in a Temple of Communion destruction task force ahead of time.

Strategies #2 and #3 are very effective if there is no enemy fleet nearby. You need strategy #1 for enemy fleet.

So my bottom line of what needs to be fixed is not Wail: what is needed is (1) do something to make the Advent Loyalists loveable (I like idea of making the two culture upgrades FREE and AUTOMATIC on their starbases) and (2) do something MORE to make it so that ICO games accept VR. I must say that I am not yet fully convinced that item #2 needs fixing still after V1.04, it needs more ICO testing, to see if player strategies can adjust as they did to Wail. If teams coordinate and make hunter-killer fleets of ogrovs, that could the end of problem #2; it needs ICO testing. So that would just leave item #1 for fixing.

Reply #17 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 15
Let us consider other situations, such as trying to trickle forces through gravity wells...in the current situation, you may have to trickle forces through a gravity well "in wail range" in order to get to another gravity well...if however wail only affects the one planet, you no longer have to do this...
End of Seleuceia's quote

But why is this a problem? We all agree overlapping wail is a problem. Assuming one of the other solutions is adopted, the beauty of wail is that once a fleet arrives at the planet with wail setup, it is totally useless. You must constantly keep an eye on your surroundings, and have to make a hard choice about when to use it. If you make it so that its the gravity well its in, then people will just fire off wail if they know they can't keep the planet anyways. It becomes a red button for planets, and it loses the strategic depth that made it interesting in the first place.

Further, I'd rather keep my fleet split up on border planet, then reunite it at the target planet, than to be able to have it all united at the border planet, but unable to send my entire fleet to the target, for risk that it would get wailed.

Reply #18 Top

Quoting candido-, reply 16
I have to say that I am in a minority on Wail. I myself mostly play TEC, and I therefore do not play with Wail. I play against Wail. At first, I found it totally overwhelming. But now I have adapted strategies and compensations, and I find that Wail, though certainly powerful, adds an extra dimension of strategy to the game. You can't just "make a huge fleet and kill everyone". You have to think more, you have to anticipate more, most of the new so-called "OP" things require this adaptation, in fact, IMHO.

Ways to work against wail:

1. Novalith cannon. Kill population. Then jump to attack.

2. Send in your fleet in waves of 25% so that no Wail will take out your whole fleet.

3. Send in a Temple of Communion destruction task force ahead of time.

Strategies #2 and #3 are very effective if there is no enemy fleet nearby. You need strategy #1 for enemy fleet.

So my bottom line of what needs to be fixed is not Wail: what is needed is (1) do something to make the Advent Loyalists loveable (I like idea of making the two culture upgrades FREE and AUTOMATIC on their starbases) and (2) do something MORE to make it so that ICO games accept VR. I must say that I am not yet fully convinced that item #2 needs fixing still after V1.04, it needs more ICO testing, to see if player strategies can adjust as they did to Wail. If teams coordinate and make hunter-killer fleets of ogrovs, that could the end of problem #2; it needs ICO testing. So that would just leave item #1 for fixing.
End of candido-'s quote

 

 

I do totally agree that the Advent Loyalist need more love, even now after their Titan is fixed and fine. I however disagree about the starbase upgrade because:

 

  • amount of starbases you are likely going to build= few
  • culture being weak in general = little effect
  • Advent in general need more help against Vasari late game.

 

Reply #19 Top

I do not like wail affecting neighboring planets...all these propositions: targetting only friendly wells, doing damage over time, targetting a single entity etc etc either don't solve the overlapping problem or nerf it too hard....

As long as wail can target any planets next to it, you still have wail overlapping....and if you have a situation where 2 or 3 high pop planets can protect each other with wail, then those planets are unapproachable with frigates...

Solutions to try and nerf wail in general such as reducing the damage or making it damage over time just make the ability useless...an ice/desert must kill the frigates, that is the beauty of wail...if a wailed ice/desert cannot kill LFs, LRFs, Corvettes, and flak outright, then the ability is immediately ten times weaker because now you have to follow up a wail use with a fleet attack, and that defeats the entire purpose of the ability...

I still advocate making wail affect only the planet the culture center is at...that immediately prevents overlapping, and the only planets that could ever be unapproachable would terrans, deserts, and ice (as opposed to any planet which just happens to neighbor one of those)...if for whatever reason a planet seems unapproachable (because of defenses and/or fleet + wail, you still have the superweapon option...but, with this implementation you would never need more than one superweapon in order to do the trick (overlapping can necessitate 2 or 3 cannon shots)...

Furthermore, isolating the ability to the planet with the culture center offers much more flexibility with tweaking the numbers, implementing things like DoT or secondary buffs...if you can always wail a fleet at any planet of yours,(don't require a neighboring), the odds that you have a fleet and/or defenses to follow up with also are greater....and if wail usages are more likely to be coupled with fleets following up with an attack, then that leaves more room for reducing the damage, implementing DoT, or including a delay/warning...

Reply #20 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 20
I do not like wail affecting neighboring planets...all these propositions: targetting only friendly wells, doing damage over time, targetting a single entity etc etc either don't solve the overlapping problem or nerf it too hard....

As long as wail can target any planets next to it, you still have wail overlapping....and if you have a situation where 2 or 3 high pop planets can protect each other with wail, then those planets are unapproachable with frigates...

End of Seleuceia's quote

Actually goa's proposition solves overlapping Wails Nicely.  The issue with Overlapping Wails isn't the lack of an approach vector.  The issue is that you can hit someone with a Wail even when they have already arrived at their attack target, meaning you can't even sneak past the proverbial Wail perimeter.

And Goa's suggestion wasn't to make it only affect friendly wells.  it was the opposite: to make it only affect neutral/hostile wells.  This means once you get to the planet you're attacking you're essentially safe.  Honestly that may even be too harsh as it pretty much Guarantees that Kostura can bypass Wail entirely every time.



Solutions to try and nerf wail in general such as reducing the damage or making it damage over time just make the ability useless...an ice/desert must kill the frigates, that is the beauty of wail...if a wailed ice/desert cannot kill LFs, LRFs, Corvettes, and flak outright, then the ability is immediately ten times weaker because now you have to follow up a wail use with a fleet attack, and that defeats the entire purpose of the ability...

I still advocate making wail affect only the planet the culture center is at...that immediately prevents overlapping, and the only planets that could ever be unapproachable would terrans, deserts, and ice (as opposed to any planet which just happens to neighbor one of those)...if for whatever reason a planet seems unapproachable (because of defenses and/or fleet + wail, you still have the superweapon option...but, with this implementation you would never need more than one superweapon in order to do the trick (overlapping can necessitate 2 or 3 cannon shots)...
End of quote

And honestly I think that's a problem.  Expecting a single superweapon shot to defang what is basically a factions single strongest late game faction specific tool doesn't sit well with me.  That alone turns me off to your idea.

 

not to mention it take away much of the skill and flexibility that using the skill optimally currently requires.  It's piss easy to just blow up a planet when it's under siege.  It takes a lot more attention to watch your perimeter so you can blow up the enemy fleet before it gets inside your Wail ring(and frankly you don't always have a ton of overlapping Wail threats at the attacked planet).

 

Honestly in general it would probably become an even stronger defensive tool- right up until some enemy uses a superweapon to render it useless.


Furthermore, isolating the ability to the planet with the culture center offers much more flexibility with tweaking the numbers, implementing things like DoT or secondary buffs...if you can always wail a fleet at any planet of yours,(don't require a neighboring), the odds that you have a fleet and/or defenses to follow up with also are greater....and if wail usages are more likely to be coupled with fleets following up with an attack, then that leaves more room for reducing the damage, implementing DoT, or including a delay/warning...
End of quote

 

Honestly I don't see how hitting the home well opens up all this flexibility.  All of those thing could be considered with the current implementation just as easily and frankly share some of the same flaws.

 

Honestly I'm not sure I've really been very moved by any proposal thus far- It's a tricky issue to solve without rendering the tech irrelevant or uninteresting.  Methinks I'll be giving it some thought this weekend.

 

That said though, as I said in the post from another thread that was quoted by ARESIV above, I do think any significant nerfs to wail should be accompanied with buffs to the Advent Rebel's weaker techs.  Under the surface they suffer from many of the same issues as the Advent Loyals.  They are only competitive at the moment BECAUSE Eradica & Wail are kind of OP- Balance those without buffing anything else and you'll just "balance" Advent Rebels out of the meta.

Reply #21 Top

Quoting bilun, reply 21
Actually goa's proposition solves overlapping Wails Nicely. The issue with Overlapping Wails isn't the lack of an approach vector. The issue is that you can hit someone with a Wail even when they have already arrived at their attack target, meaning you can't even sneak past the proverbial Wail perimeter.


And Goa's suggestion wasn't to make it only affect friendly wells. it was the opposite: to make it only affect neutral/hostile wells. This means once you get to the planet you're attacking you're essentially safe. Honestly that may even be too harsh as it pretty much Guarantees that Kostura can bypass Wail entirely every time.

End of bilun's quote

Lol....is this a troll?  It'll take MP players one ICO game to realize they can just scuttle planets so that any planet can still be wailed...Goa's solution doesn't really solve anything, it just makes the cost of using wail a bit higher (still a small cost compared to the time, resources, and tactical advantage your opponent loses when all their frigates dissappear)...it'll make early game uses of wail more penalizing (for the what, <10% time an AR is in eco?), but late game it will still be immensely powerful and almost just as effective....

Even if scuttling didn't work, wail under his implementation still forces you to approach only small population worlds (not a whole lot different from the current situation)...and once they get to those worlds, they can't bomb them out because then they'd be at a neutral/enemy well and could be wailed...his solution also doesn't fully address the overlapping issue, because neutral/enemy wells can be bordered by multiple wail planets....wailing 2 moons and a volcanic is just as devastating as wailing an ice or desert...

Quoting bilun, reply 21
And honestly I think that's a problem. Expecting a single superweapon shot to defang what is basically a factions single strongest late game faction specific tool doesn't sit well with me. That alone turns me off to your idea.
End of bilun's quote

The current counter to wail already is superweapons...at least with my system you would never need more than one...

Quoting bilun, reply 21
Honestly I don't see how hitting the home well opens up all this flexibility. All of those thing could be considered with the current implementation just as easily and frankly share some of the same flaws.
End of bilun's quote

Because affecting the home planet is a consistent amount of power...wail right now varies in power depending on the map...sometimes it is just meh, other times it is ridiculously OP and allows an eco player to be immune to any attack short of multiple fleets with mulltiple titans....

I want wail to be powerful...but I want it to be consistently powerful instead of some crapshoot that vascillates between meh to uber OP...allowing a planet to wail itself isn't all that much different from TL dual wielding SBs with red button (which hasn't gotten much flak about being OP)...

 

 

Reply #22 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 22

Quoting bilun, reply 21Actually goa's proposition solves overlapping Wails Nicely. The issue with Overlapping Wails isn't the lack of an approach vector. The issue is that you can hit someone with a Wail even when they have already arrived at their attack target, meaning you can't even sneak past the proverbial Wail perimeter.


And Goa's suggestion wasn't to make it only affect friendly wells. it was the opposite: to make it only affect neutral/hostile wells. This means once you get to the planet you're attacking you're essentially safe. Honestly that may even be too harsh as it pretty much Guarantees that Kostura can bypass Wail entirely every time.


Lol....is this a troll?  It'll take MP players one ICO game to realize they can just scuttle planets so that any planet can still be wailed...Goa's solution doesn't really solve anything, it just makes the cost of using wail a bit higher (still a small cost compared to the time, resources, and tactical advantage your opponent loses when all their frigates dissappear)...it'll make early game uses of wail more penalizing (for the what, <10% time an AR is in eco?), but late game it will still be immensely powerful and almost just as effective....

Even if scuttling didn't work, wail under his implementation still forces you to approach only small population worlds (not a whole lot different from the current situation)...and once they get to those worlds, they can't bomb them out because then they'd be at a neutral/enemy well and could be wailed...his solution also doesn't fully address the overlapping issue, because neutral/enemy wells can be bordered by multiple wail planets....wailing 2 moons and a volcanic is just as devastating as wailing an ice or desert...

End of Seleuceia's quote

Some good points here.  That said, I did say in my original post that I have yet to see a solution that really feels right to me- I was merely noting that Goas did a good deal to reduce the potency of overlapping wails.

That said, I'm not exactly 100% sold on his idea either(or any other presented idea thus far really).


Quoting bilun, reply 21And honestly I think that's a problem. Expecting a single superweapon shot to defang what is basically a factions single strongest late game faction specific tool doesn't sit well with me. That alone turns me off to your idea.

The current counter to wail already is superweapons...at least with my system you would never need more than one...

End of quote

yes, but it's fine now specifically because you often can't entirely shut down Wail with a single shot.  1 super weapon is expensive.  2-3 will severely weaken your fleet.

Honestly I don't think a single superweapon should negate wail.  It should be able to reduce the AR player's options as it does now, but not easily neuter Wail as your proposition would allow.


Quoting bilun, reply 21Honestly I don't see how hitting the home well opens up all this flexibility. All of those thing could be considered with the current implementation just as easily and frankly share some of the same flaws.

Because affecting the home planet is a consistent amount of power...wail right now varies in power depending on the map...sometimes it is just meh, other times it is ridiculously OP and allows an eco player to be immune to any attack short of multiple fleets with mulltiple titans....

End of quote

 

Wailing a homeworld is powerful in the current system too. 

Honestly I think with your change Wail would become a bit of a better last resort tool(before superweapons come in- they are what really break your proposition IMO)- but they would become even more niche as they would likely become nothing but a last resort.  The removal of the option to sacrifice a smaller planet to weaken a medium threat fleet would be gone.  If the enemy attacked a big world it would be all or nothing.  Further restricting the situations you want to use the tech could very well make it more situational, not less.


I want wail to be powerful...but I want it to be consistently powerful instead of some crapshoot that vascillates between meh to uber OP...allowing a planet to wail itself isn't all that much different from TL dual wielding SBs with red button (which hasn't gotten much flak about being OP)...
 
 

End of quote

 

Here's the difference: a red button doesn't take 30-40 minute of uninterrupted population growth to be primed to blow.  A starbase with red button isn't even partially countered by superweapons, much less hard-countered as your proposition would leave wail.  

They can't really use the same balancing model when one takes longer to set up and has harder counters.

 

 

Again though I'd like to reiterate no proposed change so far has really excited me overmuch.  This will probably be my last post in this thread for a bit as a result- I think I've said about as much as I can without really having a solution to argue for(at present the best I can do is point out problems with other propositions which isn't productive enough for my tastes).  I'm going to be doing some thinking and gather my thoughts over the next few days.  If any early revelations strike me I'll be back sooner.

 

Reply #23 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 22


Lol....is this a troll?  It'll take MP players one ICO game to realize they can just scuttle planets so that any planet can still be wailed...Goa's solution doesn't really solve anything, it just makes the cost of using wail a bit higher (still a small cost compared to the time, resources, and tactical advantage your opponent loses when all their frigates dissappear)...it'll make early game uses of wail more penalizing (for the what, <10% time an AR is in eco?), but late game it will still be immensely powerful and almost just as effective....

Even if scuttling didn't work, wail under his implementation still forces you to approach only small population worlds (not a whole lot different from the current situation)...and once they get to those worlds, they can't bomb them out because then they'd be at a neutral/enemy well and could be wailed...his solution also doesn't fully address the overlapping issue, because neutral/enemy wells can be bordered by multiple wail planets....wailing 2 moons and a volcanic is just as devastating as wailing an ice or desert...

 
End of Seleuceia's quote

Well, not exactly. You're not going to be able to do all three wails at once, so shield mitigation will actually be a factor for wailing several small planets, and further reduces the chance of getting a map setup capable of getting that sort of setup going.

I'll admit I did not take scuttling into account at first. In the scenario that you were already attacking a high population wail planet though, needing to scuttle one to use the other means you've really lost two high level worlds, which I certainly think is much better than it is now.

And it's an idea that can be taken further still. Your idea of wail is almost purely defensive, which is what I suppose I object to most as the Advent already has such a good single planet defense. I don't want to have to deal with a maxed out transendia with repair bays and hangars just to have my fleet destroyed by wail if it looks like I'll win.

So what if it only affected enemy planets? That way it could be used strictly as an "Island hopping" strategy. Get a high pop planet next to an enemy world, let population build up, and ensure that they'll lose their fleet if they try to stop you from taking the next planet. If you take the planet to set up wail for the next one, the previous one no longer can use wail, even if you scuttle it. All it will do is make your opponent reluctant to colonize planets next to wail worlds.

Reply #24 Top

Wow, a lively discussion here! :thumbsup:

 

 

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 20
I do not like wail affecting neighboring planets...all these propositions: targetting only friendly wells, doing damage over time, targetting a single entity etc etc either don't solve the overlapping problem or nerf it too hard....

As long as wail can target any planets next to it, you still have wail overlapping....and if you have a situation where 2 or 3 high pop planets can protect each other with wail, then those planets are unapproachable with frigates...

Solutions to try and nerf wail in general such as reducing the damage or making it damage over time just make the ability useless...an ice/desert must kill the frigates, that is the beauty of wail...if a wailed ice/desert cannot kill LFs, LRFs, Corvettes, and flak outright, then the ability is immediately ten times weaker because now you have to follow up a wail use with a fleet attack, and that defeats the entire purpose of the ability...

I still advocate making wail affect only the planet the culture center is at...that immediately prevents overlapping, and the only planets that could ever be unapproachable would terrans, deserts, and ice (as opposed to any planet which just happens to neighbor one of those)...if for whatever reason a planet seems unapproachable (because of defenses and/or fleet + wail, you still have the superweapon option...but, with this implementation you would never need more than one superweapon in order to do the trick (overlapping can necessitate 2 or 3 cannon shots)...

Furthermore, isolating the ability to the planet with the culture center offers much more flexibility with tweaking the numbers, implementing things like DoT or secondary buffs...if you can always wail a fleet at any planet of yours,(don't require a neighboring), the odds that you have a fleet and/or defenses to follow up with also are greater....and if wail usages are more likely to be coupled with fleets following up with an attack, then that leaves more room for reducing the damage, implementing DoT, or including a delay/warning...
End of Seleuceia's quote

 

First off, let me say that I enjoy discussing with you!  B) Although I do not agree with all of your points.

 

There is a certain irony to the fact that the Advent Rebels have the most frightening defense tech that should actually be owned by the TEC Loyalist. Although I would have no idea of how to explain such an ability for TEC lorewise...

 

Unless Wail gets nerfed into oblivion... Advent Rebels always will need to be approached with a lot more caution compared to the other factions.

 

In the average game, is is somewhat seldom that multiple planets overlap each other in such a wail death trap. And if they do... well bad map for you. Depending on random generation... some maps always favor some faction over the other.

 

 

And for TEC or Vasari this is still easily counterable. And you only need a single Novalith to do it.

  • As Wail should protect the planet, there is no need for increase of planet health
  • As Wail totally kills the planet, even with Starbase, there is no need for costly fortifications.
  • So the planet is at 1500 or at worst at 3000 health... being destroyed by a single Novalith hit.... and you cant recolonize it for a long time... and even after that.... it will take ages until it is wail ready again
  • Only when all the planets are fully fortified you need more than one Novalith. Because only then the damage from 3 terran wails might still be enough to kill your capships.

 

For Vasari it es even easier and you only need one Kostura... which often you would have built anyway. 

  • Kostura the planet.... LOLZ for the first time because unless the Advent had a Domina Subjugator protecting the temple with Perseverance, the temple is disabled for a long time. Changes are quite good, because both the Domina and the research are quite cost prohibitive.

  • LOLZ for the second time when you capships turn the planets surface into glass, killing the entire population

  • LOLZ for the third time when he sacrifices two planets in an attempt to kill your capships... which of course dont die unless on quite low levels.

  • LOLZ for the fourth time when his fleet arrives and you simple jump back across half the map.

 

Repeat this a few times and changes are good he will simple ragequit.

 

 

 

If wail does only affect the planet with the culture center you are making it more powerful by considerable lowering the skill level needed for its maximum power. It also makes dealing with it without superweapons a lot more difficult...

 

Vasari defenses might actually be better... but a fully fortified Advent world is nothing to sneeze at.... a starbase with hangar defenses, some logistic buildings serving as a meatshield, repair platforms and a shield and antimatter recharger - and that base sits through severe punishment without any trouble. Not to mention it will ruin the day for any capships should you decide to bring them along. If you dont.... well... those few carriers are no match for the advents defense wings... unless you jump in your entire carrier group.... but such a juice target will doubtlessy trigger wail.... and I would not trade 80 carriers for a damm planet.... not to mention the starbase is still there afterwards... and believe me... you dont kill a good built Advent SB with capital ships alone.

 

 

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 18

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 15Let us consider other situations, such as trying to trickle forces through gravity wells...in the current situation, you may have to trickle forces through a gravity well "in wail range" in order to get to another gravity well...if however wail only affects the one planet, you no longer have to do this...

But why is this a problem? We all agree overlapping wail is a problem. Assuming one of the other solutions is adopted, the beauty of wail is that once a fleet arrives at the planet with wail setup, it is totally useless. You must constantly keep an eye on your surroundings, and have to make a hard choice about when to use it. If you make it so that its the gravity well its in, then people will just fire off wail if they know they can't keep the planet anyways. It becomes a red button for planets, and it loses the strategic depth that made it interesting in the first place.

Further, I'd rather keep my fleet split up on border planet, then reunite it at the target planet, than to be able to have it all united at the border planet, but unable to send my entire fleet to the target, for risk that it would get wailed.
End of GoaFan77's quote

 

Exactly.

 

Exactly my point.

 

Yes.

 

 

 

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 24



And it's an idea that can be taken further still. Your idea of wail is almost purely defensive, which is what I suppose I object to most as the Advent already has such a good single planet defense. I don't want to have to deal with a maxed out transendia with repair bays and hangars just to have my fleet destroyed by wail if it looks like I'll win.

So what if it only affected enemy planets? That way it could be used strictly as an "Island hopping" strategy. Get a high pop planet next to an enemy world, let population build up, and ensure that they'll lose their fleet if they try to stop you from taking the next planet. If you take the planet to set up wail for the next one, the previous one no longer can use wail, even if you scuttle it. All it will do is make your opponent reluctant to colonize planets next to wail worlds.
End of GoaFan77's quote

 

Yes, that is exactly what would happen imho... first wear down the enemy fleet the normal way... and if that is not enough.... then make them pay dearly for winning..... 

 

A fleet powerful and large enough to deal with an digged in Advent.... is a good wail target

 

A fleet not so powerful and large... is not going to defeat those defenses...

 

 

IMHO

 

If Wail affects the gravity well with the culture center, it would need to be balanced in such a way that the above in bold green (people complained about the colour blue :D )  is not true.

 

Or we end up with the Advent Rebels having a defense that puts TEC Loyalists to shame

 

I really do enjoy those discussions though. |-)

 

 

Reply #25 Top

It's Advent Rebels unique research and ability. 

It's extremely situational as many have pointed out.

Wail is only useful on high population planets.

It's a Defensive line for the most part, with occasional use against Turtles.

It takes a long time to setup and will likely only allow one real use during a course of the game.

You lose the planet and paid for upgrades regardless if you have enduring devotion or not.

It's countered by Novaliths, Dispersed Fleets, Causing Itchy Trigger Fingers, Kostura's, PJ Star bases. Sadly, Advent is the only one lacking a remote way to attack or disable Wail. I wonder if anyone's tried an illuminator illusion bait? That would be funny!

 

Is it fair Wail can destroy un-upgraded fleets of frigates? Well Missile Barrage, Meteor Storm and Red Button have been doing that, well, since the beginning of Sins.

Do I think there are better ways they could have pulled this ability off? Maybe... hard to say. My preference would have been to use the cannon shell mechanism to fire the psychic backlash from the destruction at the nearby orbit bodies. Then apply the damage when the cannon shells hit the orbit bodies. You'd see it coming... maybe be able to get out... and it would have looked cool. 

Do I want Wail removed or nerfed to stupidness? At this point NO. You have dual star bases, phase jumping Orkies, planet stripping... Wail is really a drop in the hat to those even though it can severely punish a player. It also hasn't been a huge factor in a lot of games from what I've seen or the game was already decided by the time someone got Wailed. 

I've been wailed on which sucks and managed to wail one unsuspecting low level player once causing him to quit. I've also wailed a pre-nerfed VL player twice from high pop planets (but with their prior stripping bonus it didn't matter in the end).