Cart Search
New Topic
Forum Home | Login
Polynomial
Polynomial
Join Date 02/2008
+37

Stardock, Just Release the New Guys, No Beta'ing

November 16, 2009 5:18:59 PM from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I've been very supportive of Stardock's efforts over the course of this game, but this is the first time I'm going to raise a stink and openly disagree with you and hope to change your mind on this issue. And I'll approach it in a mature way.

Dash confirmed earlier today that the AI will be able to use the new Demigods, but we cannot. This is completely absurd. Its one thing to be testing for bugs, which post release is not the community's job, but that of QA. But balancing is something GPG can handle. Its their property. Why are you doing this? Adding content we cannot use, but only play against? It would be like saying the Zerg are AI only and we can only play as Terran and Protoss.

GPG did a tremendous job of balancing Demigod out of the box. In recent memory, no strategy game has been as balanced as Demigod.

Community beta testing for GPG is holding their hands through this process. When it comes to balancing in Demigod, I actually have complete trust in the context of Demigod. At this point in Demigod's ongoing development, its almost saying you don't trust the people who made the guys.

We don't want to wait another 3-4 weeks while the AI is using the Demigods, and no one else can. I understand you want to use Ready to Play to contact Demigod community members. But my suggestion is to skip this step, update Impulse with the DLC version, and make them available to the public. This is taking way too long.

We can handle skipping the Ready to Play beta testing, trust me.

demigod
Locked Post
Search this post
Advanced Search
Subscription Options
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
3 Pages1 2 3 
Polynomial
Spooky__
Join Date 10/2008
+74
Reply #1 November 16, 2009 5:25:43 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I guess if they just release them to everyone, there will be a lot of balance issues and rage.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
vindKtiv
Join Date 04/2009
+7
Reply #2 November 16, 2009 5:25:50 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Where does it say only AI can use the new Demigods? I think anybody would know that that is absolutely stupid. AI was never and never will be an accurate depiction of how real players play in this game. I wish GPG and Stardock would realize that to the extent the actual players do.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
TheBigOne
Join Date 04/2008
+9
Reply #3 November 16, 2009 5:27:25 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

you will get that rage anyways

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
Spooky__
Join Date 10/2008
+74
Reply #4 November 16, 2009 5:33:12 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Where does it say only AI can use the new Demigods?
http://forums.demigodthegame.com/369226/get;2445059

 

AI was never and never will be an accurate depiction of how real players play in this game
It's not about that. It's about being able to play against/alongside the new Demigods, be it an AI or human player. At first the human player who can play the new Demigods will be from Stardock, then from RTP. And later on everyone will be able to use them. But during that time, you'll always be able to play with others who can use the new Demigods.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
pacov
Join Date 02/2008
+183
Reply #5 November 16, 2009 5:33:26 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting vindKtiv,
reply 2
Where does it say only AI can use the new Demigods? I think anybody would know that that is absolutely stupid. AI was never and never will be an accurate depiction of how real players play in this game. I wish GPG and Stardock would realize that to the extent the actual players do.

http://forums.demigodthegame.com/369226/page/1/#2445119

The dg's are in the game the second 1.2 goes live.  We get access when SD unlocks them for us.  Hehe... so not only will frogboy taunt us by watching him play them but so will the AI.  I can only wonder what the AI will do with the shadow ability. 

I'm pretty sure we all agree that we'd like to start playing the new Dgs asap.  Realistically, using ready to play is for marketing and to increase the install base.  All well and good.  I think rolling out the dgs as DLC are what they are testing... and they can control access as they like.  Bottom line - we all agree with GIMME!  I'll wait as long as have to.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
Lavosking
Join Date 04/2009
+1
Reply #6 November 16, 2009 5:34:09 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

its not the waiting that really bothers me after all im sure everyone wants to get their hands on the new demigods, and the longer it takes the more polished they will be....however the thing that makes me a bit ticked off is that not everyone will get them right away which is very very strange because then if there are balance issues well then too bad the people that can play the demigods will be OP, but im sure the reason behind giving them to the player base is to test updates through impules and DLC for future demigods? either way the waiting and QA isnt the bad thing imo its the only certain people get the free content that bugs me

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
vindKtiv
Join Date 04/2009
+7
Reply #7 November 16, 2009 5:42:59 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

That's absolutely ridiculous. There is absolutely no point in having the AI being able to use it first.

It's not about that. It's about being able to play against/alongside the new Demigods, be it an AI or human player. At first the human player who can play the new Demigods will be from Stardock, then from RTP. And later on everyone will be able to use them. But during that time, you'll always be able to play with others who can use the new Demigods.

I am totally fine with other select individuals being able to use the new Demigods. The only things that can happen with the selective release of the new Demigod are better balance and relatively less whining. I can understand that feeling of "so close yet so far," but more patience will be very beneficial.

While we are at it, we might as well give GPG and SD more breathing space about the new DG issue. It seems that every other person is giving SD crap about not releasing the new DGs immediately, and if we are going to see any benefit from the extended beta testing then we should probably cut back on the raging.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
fTdOmen
Join Date 01/2007
0
Reply #8 November 16, 2009 5:43:16 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I voiced my opposition to this back when frogboy first posted the idea. For the life of me, I can't figure out where the logic lies in excluding some(most?) of your (already small) userbase when trying to get opinions on what needs fixing.

So you want people to have ready to play in order to easily contact those people, fine, contact those people anyway. The people who don't have ready to play still have access to the forums, there will be ways for them to post ideas / criticisms. The larger your beta pool the better the potential feedback.

In this instance, the excuse of witholding to balance the DG's is a moot point, if you've got access to skills, stats and abilities that I've never experienced, i'm not sure of what the animations even look like, how will i know when to interrupt a potentially lethal ability, i'll have been able to read the skills and stats, and understand them, but untill i play them i'll never truely know them.

Quoting Frogboy,
reply 71

The only way Demigod's launch would have gone smooth really (with hindsight) would have been to have a very very large open beta with a MP stress test.  

Letting bots have the ability to access these demigods and not real players is making the community angry. Despite what you see on the forums, a lot of people have held their tongue sat back and waited for improvements (i'm one of those people). That you don't want to listen to what your consumers are pleading for, makes me question whether or not anyone has learned from the past, or cares about the future.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
Polynomial
Join Date 02/2008
+37
Reply #9 November 16, 2009 5:52:03 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting fTdOmen,
reply 8
So you want people to have ready to play in order to easily contact those people, fine, contact those people anyway. The people who don't have ready to play still have access to the forums, there will be ways for them to post ideas / criticisms. The larger your beta pool the better the potential feedback.

You're so right about it being completely unfair to people fighting them. These guys are supposed to be free DLC for EVERY Demigod player. You're creating a point in time where you are giving people an advantage deliberately.

Precisely. I cannot agree with this more. Yarlen, Zoomba, Frogboy, T-Man whomever. Message us on Ready to Play for individual feedback. We will give it to you happily.

This is not your usual Demigod sucks rant. This is a good argument and I hope it changes your perspective, Frogboy.

I guarantee everyone if plans continue as normal, it will be 2-3-4 more weeks before the DLC is publically available. Thanksgiving will delay everything. I told my Demigod team the new guys would be out in August. They still joke at me.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
Polynomial
Join Date 02/2008
+37
Reply #10 November 16, 2009 5:53:27 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting Lavosking,
reply 6
its not the waiting that really bothers me after all im sure everyone wants to get their hands on the new demigods, and the longer it takes the more polished they will be....however the thing that makes me a bit ticked off is that not everyone will get them right away which is very very strange because then if there are balance issues well then too bad the people that can play the demigods will be OP, but im sure the reason behind giving them to the player base is to test updates through impules and DLC for future demigods? either way the waiting and QA isnt the bad thing imo its the only certain people get the free content that bugs me

This is another good point. If only a certain group has them, and imbalances are found, this is completely unfair and will only alienate people given the record of how many weeks patching takes around here.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
Microstar
Join Date 02/2008
+13
Reply #11 November 16, 2009 6:28:59 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

agree with op

 

myself convinced 7 people to buy demigod...not a single one of them bought via coupon..all paid full....

i advertised the great game amongst them...

they are also joking on me..and next time i wont have the trust of them....

 

not your fault..but pls hurry up and dont make experiments with different groups released to...

 

greets..da half calmed ...half stinky microstar

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
HorseStrangler
Join Date 05/2009
+37
Reply #12 November 16, 2009 6:36:49 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

My guess would be that you either have this sort of hybrid live beta or we wait on an internal beta at GPG to be completed.

If you let every player access these DGs you're just going to have a bunch of mirror matches.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
Polynomial
Join Date 02/2008
+37
Reply #13 November 16, 2009 6:41:46 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting obscenitor,
reply 12
If you let every player access these DGs you're just going to have a bunch of mirror matches.

That's not really an issue.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
HorseStrangler
Join Date 05/2009
+37
Reply #14 November 16, 2009 6:47:58 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting Polynomial,
reply 13
That's not really an issue.
It is if the purpose of the partial release of the DGs is to help test their balance.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
Polynomial
Join Date 02/2008
+37
Reply #15 November 16, 2009 6:58:35 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I think you and I obscenitor if we had access to their full skill trees could probably point out things that look iffy without necessarily "testing" them in game.

I don't see any need to do weeks of Ready to Play balance testing. They should be released to everyone and patched if issues arrise. Simple as that.

Everyone remember Erebus being patched? It was done rather swiftly, so I imagine it could be done again.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
ZehDon
Join Date 04/2009
+115
Reply #16 November 16, 2009 7:08:10 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting obscenitor,
reply 14
That's not really an issue.It is if the purpose of the partial release of the DGs is to help test their balance.

Exactly, in fact I believe Frogboy commented as such. I think it's the best way to test them; we need to make sure that they're balanced in all conditions. Seeing 3v3 matches where everyone is playing the two new Demigods is going to skew any perceived - or passive - observations.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
Polynomial
Join Date 02/2008
+37
Reply #17 November 16, 2009 7:13:16 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Which is why everyone should have access to them. Mirror match probability decreases the more people playing, and whining and forum comments probability increase.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
ZehDon
Join Date 04/2009
+115
Reply #18 November 16, 2009 7:18:29 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

The new Demigods are highly anticipated  why, exactly, wouldn't people play as them if they had them? The more people who have new content, the more people are going to use said content. It's simple.

If they're released un-balanced, which they're going to be - hence being tested, the less people that have access to them the better. Arguing that Mirror matches aren't going to occur if everyone has them is unrealistic.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
Spooky__
Join Date 10/2008
+74
Reply #19 November 16, 2009 7:21:03 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

The mirror match probability doesn't decrease if everyone has them. If everyone has access to them, most will try it out, therefore there will be a lot of mirror matches. If only a part has access to them, only they will chose them and they'll most likely also have players in their game without access to the new Demigods.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
Polynomial
Join Date 02/2008
+37
Reply #20 November 16, 2009 7:23:08 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

If they're released unbalanced you're leaving a group of people with access to them, and a larger group of people who don't. That, and you'll be annoying the community who does not have access to them. It was said from the start these 2 guys were for everyone.

The more people that have the new demigods, the more different games we will experience. You cannot assume everyone will solely be playing the new guys.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
fTdOmen
Join Date 01/2007
0
Reply #21 November 16, 2009 7:39:11 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums
spooky__, obscenitor and Zehdon, if all three of you completely and 100% think that frogboy is correct with his logic of going about the release as it is planned right now, why don't you post in public for all to see that would prefer your invite to use them (if you were to get one) to go to somebody else instead.

I can say right now too, people won't allow for double ups after 24hours or so, they're frowned upon now, that sentiment isn't about to dissappear immediately.

I'd also like to point out, how about the hosts who don't have access to the demigods, forcing people not to play them, or kicking people who are trying to play them. The idea of playing against a foe who's got tools i don't peeves me off to no end, and with how hard i find getting games going, i don't want them spoiled by an unknown factor.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
Polynomial
Join Date 02/2008
+37
Reply #22 November 16, 2009 7:50:02 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

That is very true. Stardock and GPG didn't exactly predict the whole premade situation and that issue is just another one to come up. There is not enough people playing Demigod AND have Ready to Play to have a subset beta test getting a ton of games in with these guys all with different variables. The best solution is just to go all in and take a leap of faith that GPG did a good job.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
dist0rtedwave
Join Date 05/2009
+1
Reply #23 November 16, 2009 7:59:32 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Another point that is important to testing balance: Knowing how to play a demigod is crucial to knowing how to play against them. This is why you get so many beginners crying op. You don't see what really hurts that DG until you have it done to you. It is also is a lot easier to predict what the opponent is going to do and when if you play the character yourself.

There are two reasons that this will make a difference in balancing.

  1. It will be hard to counter a demigod you have never played as
  2. Plenty of people will be seeing the new demigods for the first time and playing against people who have 50+ games with them.

Both of these seem very likely to cause a false positive on the "over powered test".

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
ZehDon
Join Date 04/2009
+115
Reply #24 November 16, 2009 8:06:26 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting fTdOmen,
reply 21
spooky__, obscenitor and Zehdon, if all three of you completely and 100% think that frogboy is correct with his logic of going about the release as it is planned right now, why don't you post in public for all to see that would prefer your invite to use them (if you were to get one) to go to somebody else instead.


By all means - feel free to send a link to this post to all Stardock Employees via the Private Message system - I happily give up my place, if I were to have one, in the group chosen to Beta Test the two new Demigods. Please give my place to anyone else of your selection.

The method of fragmented testing is the best way to balance the new Demigods quickly; they'll select very active players and ask that they test the new Demigods and report their observations as well as checking the numbers on their own end to see how they preform.

If you're attempting to say that I, and the others here who also agree with this testing method, are simply saying this because we believe we'll be selected and thus actually have the new Demigods, you're very, very mistaken.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Polynomial
Polynomial
Join Date 02/2008
+37
Reply #25 November 16, 2009 8:12:57 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I feel I can offer great insight in regards to beta testing. But I do not feel this is the best way. Obviously if I would ended up testing them I would start hammering away in game again. These guys and 1.2 are EVERYTHING I've been waiting for. But no one is going to play with me outside this subset.

How do you suppose this small subset of Demigod players will test quickly? What about time zone differences? Work? Life? Anything? Like its been said, no one wants to play demigods they have no access to.

Its really simple. Law of averages, law of large numbers, mathematics. Let a complex system run long enough and eventually something interesting might arise that contradicts the short term answer. A small subset of a small community cannot do that as efficiently as everyone can. Even if everyone who has Ready to Play and Demigod (I think that's what Stardock would do, not hand pick) is added, its still a subset.

This is all assuming these guys even have serious balance issues, and I can tell you from what I know, they don't.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
3 Pages1 2 3 
Stardock Forums v        Server Load Time:   Page Render Time: