Will 1.04 fix any minidump issues?

no, because there will always be a reason for the game to crash on one system or another

Why do people still think minidumps are THE ISSUE?

I would guess you have a higher chance of getting a response if you email Ironclad support asking that

cuz it happen to a lot of people and often

For real.

They should issue a patch for folk who don't get it that just disables the minidump entirely and lets the error fall through to the usual Windows "Yeah. You crashed. Deal with it" message.

Because in a sense they are -- the minidumps might be a symptom, but its the symptom they see.

Not really, minidumps themselves are nothing other than game data collected after a crash, they aren't crashes themselves Ergo, they're not so much a symptom of a crash but a result of one

But you know, according to Annatar, because these crashes don't happen to him they're not happening to anybody. Right Annatar?

The fact of the matter is, a large number of people are getting them which makes the game not playable in many cases. IC needs to address the worst (Multiplayer) of these as soon as possible.

Every time you get a crash/minidump, make sure you send the minidump files to IC's customer service. And an email or two reminding them would probably help too.

It's sad that after two months you can't finish a MP game.

No, but conversely just because they're happening to you doesn't mean they're happening to the majority of the players

I have never said that these problem are happening to the majority of the players, but it is happening to a very large number of players. The game is unstable, it doesn't take much to see that. These issues need to be addressed.

And Annatar it really bothers me that you discount peoples concerns and discourage people from posting about these issues on the forums.

I don't discount people's concerns, when they're valid and based on facts. For example, let's take:



To which I ask, where's your proof? The game sold over 200,000 copies. Even if 2,000 people can never finish a game due to crashes (and it's a problem on Ironclad's end), that's 1% of the population. Sure, 2000 is not a small number of people, but relatively speaking because the game works for 99% of the people and 1% have problems, you can't really call the game "unstable". Even if 10% (10,000 people!) of the population have constant crashes, 90% is not "unstable" either. And I sincerely doubt you can prove that even 10% can never play the game.

I never said crashes and minidumps are meaningless, and I always ask people to send them (and any other weird bug stuff) to Ironclad support. My problem is not that people post about minidumps, it's when they start being insulting and using unsubstantiated arguments (like yours I just pointed out), and furthermore trying to tell Ironclad they're supposed to be fixing your stuff first instead of other things they may be working on.

A lot of people who post about minidumps also don't understand that most of them aren't even related. Like an above poster pointed out, it just means the game crashed. There can be many causes for these crashes, and Ironclad previously pointed out that over 90% of the minidumps they get are either driver issues or a user issue (mods, etc).

I sympathize with everyone who crashes constantly. Since September until Nvidia's latest beta drivers I've been unable to play World in Conflict online due to the display driver issue, but now with the beta driver my Hellgate: London completely hangs on launch so I can't even play that anymore (in DX10, anyway). So it's not like I don't understand the frustration of having something not work.

But if people are going to start being hostile and insulting to Ironclad over it, you can definitely be sure I'll start being sarcastic and cynical with them. After all, if they don't treat the developers with any respect, why should I treat them with any?

Let me ask you this: did you ever email Ironclad support and politely ask if they could give you any update on possible resolutions, or to confirm whether or not it's an issue on their end, or did you just assume the worst and came to the forum to complain about the game being unstable and Ironclad not doing their jobs with support? I'm willing to bet you ask nicely you'll get an answer - it might not be the one you want ("It's fixed in 1.04"), but I'm pretty sure you won't be ignored.

Annatar, sounds like you understand the pain. I don't think that any of us unknown quantity of crashers (under which every single one of my friends that play each on a different platform and OS suffers) hate IC or anything like that, we merely want that crux of future development of which I'm sure there are a limited number of cycles to focus on getting the game to work in a stable manner for the people that are having crashes. I wouldn't be this vocal if I didn't LOVE the game. I am super frustrated that none of my compatriots can play it multi. In addition we send every single dump into IC and in the past haven't gotten much response which is why Baron posted in the past that some auto-answering applet should send at least a confirmation e-mail. Basically when you send a dump in it's going into a black hole and you don't know if something is happening or if it's even been received is all.

I remember that, and Ironclad did take that suggestion and is working on an auto-responder with some more general fixes.

I'm in a bit of a unique situation, I suppose, because I can understand both sides. On the one hand, like I pointed out, I know how frustrating it can be. But on the other hand, I also know how Ironclad works.

There are just 9 people at the company. That's it Nine people for doing support, patching, further development, etc - that's a pretty enormous amount of work. Those guys spend evenings in the office working on stuff. We had a running joke for the longest time about Blair and Craig never sleeping, because they'd be posting on the forums at 3-4 am listing bugs they had just fixed. It would be literally impossible for them to reply to each minidump e-mail. Hopefully the auto-responder will help some.

But given that, I'll reiterate again that probably the best thing for you guys to do is to just send them an email asking if there's any status updates they can give you. The guys over there are not jerks, and I'm willing to bet if you just ask nicely you'll get a reply back.

Myself and several others from beta do tend to be a bit protective of them, not because we're "fanbois" (not claiming that's your implication, just speaking generally :)), but because we know after helping them dig through bugs, issues, and crashing for half a year or more we know how dedicated they are to improving the game and making sure it runs as good as possible. Coming out of beta, you literally could not find any beta tester that was reporting crashes/minidumps - that's the best they could do. Of course going from the beta test to 200,000 people is bound to uncover problems that the beta testers could not, but that also doesn't mean the game was pushed through QA with obvious crashing issues (as was implied in the other thread).

That's what I don't like. I realize that most people don't know the process as well as some of the beta testers who worked pretty closely with Ironclad, but a lot of flak they get is undeserved and some of it pretty insulting (such as the aforementioned implication that they released the game with obvious wide-spread crashing issues).

Annatar, the interesting thing about statistics is you can make them say what ever you want them to say.

You know, it would be interesting to take a poll. I bet the hard facts you desire would surprise you on the number of people that are experiencing crash issues. But till then I can only go on the people I have talked to and what I am able to gather from the forums.

My expectation as a user is that if I buy a game it should work, if it doesn't it needs to be fixed. Stability is king! If it's stable, I'm happy. Don't think that is to much to ask for.

I don't believe that any of the posts that I have read on the forums (over the last two days) concerning the stability of the game have been directly insulting to the developers. If they do, they need to get thicker skins. To be honest, most of my ire has been focused on people like you who tell me to suck it up and live with it and stop pointing out that there is a problem. I have done everything that IC has asked me (and many other users ) to do, and have not seen any movement or even acknowledgment. IC needs to spend time addressing these issues one way or another. In dealing with disgruntled people the worst thing you can do is nothing. As I have mentioned before in a different thread even creating a FAQ indicating that they have looked into and identified that there is an issue and that it will be addressed goes a long way. If 90% of the problems are related, post it to the FAQ, it will help reduce the noise. But until IC does something to this end they shouldn't be surprised about getting flamed by frustrated users that are having the same experience as I am.

I'm with Shaft on this one, if I didn't enjoy this game so much I wouldn't make such a big stink. I really want to be able to play this game.

From the experience I have had with this game, I have formed the perception that it is unstable. And from the evidence I have access to there has been no perceived action toward stabilizing it. Perception is a funny thing. I can only hope that IC is seeing some of this and doing something to change that perception. Till then, I can only make more noise till something changes.

Annatar, one thing you should know, in being sarcastic and cynical you are only making the problem worse.

Annatar, the interesting thing about statistics is you can make them say what ever you want them to say.

You know, it would be interesting to take a poll. I bet the hard facts you desire would surprise you on the number of people that are experiencing crash issues. But till then I can only go on the people I have talked to and what I am able to gather from the forums.

My expectation as a user is that if I buy a game it should work, if it doesn't it needs to be fixed. Stability is king! If it's stable, I'm happy. Don't think that is to much to ask for.

I don't believe that any of the posts that I have read on the forums (over the last two days) concerning the stability of the game have been directly insulting to the developers. If they find them offensive, they need to get thicker skins. To be honest, most of my ire has been focused on people like you who tell me to suck it up and live with it and stop pointing out that there is a problem. I have done everything that IC has asked me (and many other users ) to do, and have not seen any movement or even acknowledgment. IC needs to spend time addressing these issues one way or another. In dealing with disgruntled people the worst thing you can do is nothing. As I have mentioned before in a different thread even creating a FAQ indicating that they have looked into and identified that there is an issue and that it will be addressed goes a long way. If 90% of the problems are related, post it to the FAQ, it will help reduce the noise. But until IC does something to this end they shouldn't be surprised about getting flamed by frustrated users that are having the same experience as I am.

I'm with Shaft on this one, if I didn't enjoy this game so much I wouldn't make such a big stink. I really want to be able to play this game.

From the experience I have had with this game, I have formed the perception that it is unstable. And from the evidence I have access to there has been no perceived action toward stabilizing it. Perception is a funny thing. I can only hope that IC is seeing some of this and doing something to change that perception. Till then, I can only make more noise till something changes.

Annatar, one thing you should know, in being sarcastic and cynical you are only making the problem worse.

Sorry for the double post..

I'd like to point out a good bit of irony. When has flaming ever really solved anything?



Please point out where I told anyone to "suck it up" and "stop posting" and I will eat my words. Until then, however, the only thing I believe I posted is that I don't believe (and there are no statistics to show) that the issue is that wide-spread, and that Ironclad has already given an update on the forums (2 causes on their end, hoping for 1.1 fixes). I tell people to be respectful and not flame, but I don't believe I've ever said not to post about issues

Annatar,

"Please point out where I told anyone to "suck it up" and "stop posting" and I will eat my words."

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/305961/#1683572 reply #23
"Then you both can get refunds and be on your merry way The fact is, the majority of players have no issues, and in any piece of software there will always be people who do. It's the nature of the beast, and miracle fixes aren't going to happen overnight"

How do they taste?

Sometimes the facts are ironic. The facts are I will continue to make noise. Until they fix it they shouldn't be _surprised_ if they get flamed (I'm not advocating, nor have I ever). And your behavior is making it worse (btw, if you're going to quote me, at least use it in context).

If you have such an intimate relationship with the IC guys, why don't you help rather then hinder.

I love predictability.

Nowehere in that quote does it say that you should stop posting or to suck it up. I said you can get refunds, which is true, and did sneak in a jab that you can stop flaming. And of course that fixing a deep-rooted issue that's not widely reported can and will take time.

You're right, though. Sometimes facts are ironic - if it's a fact that you'll continue to make moise, it's also a fact that you're hurting your own cause. It's so much simpler and more productive to email support and ask, but if you'd rather come on the forums and flame, be my guest and you'll see for yourself what kind of response you'll get.



The only help I can give is what I've been giving. Pertaining to this thread specifically, my very first reply (#3) pretty plainly adressed the OP's question, which was valid, by saying that he can probably get a response easier if he emailed that question to support. In regards to the other minidump thread, my replied #1,3,9,13 weren't hostile at all, and either suggested possible things to try, or relayed information about what's known or what the course of action could be.

And the funny thing is, that quote of mine was in direct response to yours, specifically these tidbits:




Funny how you say you don't condone flaming, yet you do just that. It's like I said earlier on - as long as people remain respectful, as the earlier posts in the thread have been, I do try to help. But if you start flaming, what do you expect in return?

Just thought I'd throw in my two cents.

I have to agree with Blue on all points. I too am suffering the catastrophic crash in MP after a few hours of game play (always exactly when things are about to get really interesting). The problem has occurred on my laptop that I typically game with as well as on my work computer, two very different machines. It has also happened on my co-workers home computer and his work computer, with all four machines being very different from each other (different video cards, amounts of ram, processors, etc).

We have spent many hours both at home and during our lunch breaks desperately trying to make it through just one MP game of Sins. Like everyone else, it wouldn't be a problem if the game wasn't so much fun up until the crash. If it was only a mediocre game I would have given up and moved on long ago. I have several other friends that are also saying that they are experiencing similar problems.

As for IC being a small team, that doesn't really excuse anything. They made a great game that sold over 200,000 copies, which has revealed what appears to be substantial stability issues. It might be time for them to consider hiring more programmers if they can't support their game with their current staff. I do not mean this as an insult to them, or as an attempt to tell them how to run their company. I am merely explaining why I do not consider this a valid excuse.

I too have the very simple expectation that when I pay my hard earned money for a game, it works. If it doesn't, I would hope that the company would support it's customers enough to at least acknowledge the issue and make every attempt to repair it, and ideally maybe even putting it in front of game balance issues on the priority list.

If not, I too would be very interested in hearing if IC is actually offering refunds to us, "the unknown quantity".

Oh, and I have emailed support (without minidumps as I could not retrieve anything) as has my friend (with minidumps) and still have not gotten a reply.

If you email support and don't get a response, the only option left is to go the forums and hope that if enough people make enough noise, they might finally hear it. It's just another possible avenue. It is a technical issues forum, so if people are blasted for posting technical issues instead of emailing support, why even bother having one?

Well, I will have to add a point or two, on both post of the fence. Here we go,

1.) As far as my computer and time playing is concerned, i have only experienced the minidump once. (hence, thats why im reading this...) So as far as stibility is concerned I dont see the problem.

2.) I do agree that this is no small problem. This is a major crash, ( or result of a crash or, the icing on the cake, whatever you wanna call it....)

3.) I am spending my time to look for a solution besides the, show me yours and ill show mine philosophy.

They did acknowledge previously that there are two causes for crashes that are on their end. They also did say that they hope to have them fixed for 1.1. While I understand the frustration, not everything also goes according to plan. 1.04 was meant to be a quick patch tweaking some balance issues that were also very loudly complained about, but problems came up and the patch was delayed. Sadly, this kind of thing can happen.



Contact sales@stardock.com if you do wish to pursue a refund. I believe one of the requirements for it is that you had to have gone through tech support, but seeing how you did

I'll reiterate again, however, that as easy as it is to vent about it on the forums, it's probably more productive and will net you an answer to ask Ironclad support directly about any progress or solution plans.

All, this is getting pretty heated but in perusing all of the forums for minidump information I see far more replies from Annatar than I do from IC on the topic; in fact I see Annatar in a TON of these threads commentating...sometimes helpful and sometimes commentating. You spend a lot of time coming to the defense of IC and some on helping. I must also say that your suggestion to get a refund was something that I took as snide in text when I was reaching out for help to the community after trying a lot on my (our representing my group of gamers) own. Annatar, I know you have a close relationship and I have to say that I work with lots of developers that burn the midnight oil that aren't going to cash in hard but in short IC sold a lot of copies, and splitting it among only 9 people + the distributer 9 I'm guessing that 9 people are going to make some cash for their effort. I know that there are only 9 people and I have some understanding there. Also understand that I spent good money on the game and work hard in IT as well and my clients cut me minimal slack if something goes wrong thus setting my expectations for other IT staff. As I said, it is the focus of the development that I have a problem with it should be aimed at resolving crashes before going on to balance related issues. Myself and my crew played the heck out of the beta as well which didn't crash a much as release 1.3. I think that 1.2 had far less crashing as well...something specific occurred in 1.3 that caused a lot of this.

I definitely love the game. It is a long game....if you're playing multi you can expect to play for a minimum of a few hours and more likely more than that. Crashing constantly means not finishing a game with a heavy investment in time behind it. Crashing constantly means reloading over and over and losing time and doing things over and it builds frustration. We have tried troubleshooting on our own (just to let Wildsage know that coming to the forums was our last resort as far as posting and asking) and examining the dumps ourselves, adjusting our virtual memory, patching, changing hardware, etc. We have tried what people put forward in the forums as well. Nothing works and at this point we're just waiting for the game to get fixed.

As to double posting almost every time I post my browser clocks and doesn't post, I kill it and repaste my post and it's there twice. So be it