Thoughts/comments about trading w/AI

from GalCiv2 Forums
Some thoughts/comments I have about the trade screen.

- What an AI is willing to pay for a tech you're selling seems to vary not just with the tech itself and your/their diplomacy levels, but also I suspect with the amount of cash the AI has available, and possibly some race-specific preferences.

So the AI might be willing to pay 300bc for some juicy tech if it has lots of cash, but often it seems that it caps what it's willing to spend on any particular tech deal to maybe about 30-40% of its total cash reserve, even if that dramatically undervalues what the tech is worth. In other words, good luck getting 300bc for some nice expensive tech from an AI that only has 350bc.

If you want to sell the tech anyway (see below for a good reason), you can obviously work around their cash limitation by trading a tech from them, but if you're like me, they rarely have much to trade you don't already have.

But you can get extra value from the AI by throwing in one or two of their scouts (or maybe fighters) as part of the deal. Why get their scouts? Well, IMHO, getting 120bc and a scout is a better deal than 135 bc and no scout. You can use the scout to explore, block transports to a planet, or be a quick upgrade away from being a fighter at some later point. Or just sell it for 12bc. But there is the added benefit that it forces the AI to build a new 75bc scout(s) to replace the one(s) it just gave you. In the early game, time and money the AI spends building scouts is not being spent exploring or more importantly building colony ships.

You can also throw in a request for some influence points. Sometimes they won't trade any or just 1, but sometimes you can get thousands from them. Influence points aren't worth very much, but remember that every point you get is one they lose, so it's a double effect in terms of the point swing. It can add up over time if you're getting points from every race on most trades.

- It seems when you stack techs together to trade, their value to the AI decreases for some reason. So you seem to generally get more cash if you sell two techs separately than you will if you sell them both in one trade. I'm not sure if that works in your favor if you try buying multiple techs from the AI (definitely worth trying).

- Minor exploit: I've noticed that the AI seems equally willing to trade for a tech it is about to complete research on as one it is nowhere near. So (using espionage) you can wait until the AI has spent many weeks researching some tech down to the final week, and then swoop in and trade it to them for full value. This lets you get paid for the tech while not giving them any tech advancement they wouldn't already have made anyway. It's exploiting an AI weakness, but I find it so delicious it's hard to resist.

- It seems that the AI is currently unwilling to *ever* trade a mining colony (at least in Beta 4B). I just offered the last place AI 80000bc for one, plus nearly all my techs and some planets, and it refused to budge. I understand that it should rate them highly, but that's just insane.

- If you're the top military power, the AI won't usually trade weapons techs with you at your request, but I just had an AI pop up and make *me* an trade offer on a tech it had just refused to sell me.

- Sometimes the AI is more willing to sell weapon techs to you if you have a military tech to trade in return. I've found it's nice to have a few cheapie defense or low level weapon techs available for this purpose.

- The AI seems to refuse to sell its flagship at any price. This seems unreasonable when it's willing to set a price on whole colonies. I think it should just set a high price on the flagship to make sure it gets good value.

I'm curious what other people have noted about AI trading.
13,868 views 21 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
They fixed almost all the problems that you listed - just disable tech trading xD its too easy with tech trading and AI allt rade between themselves, everyone got the same weapon shiled and the race personality is gone
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Since so many people complained about the way the Computer traded technology, they changed it so that it is all jacked up now. It was fine in the first version, but it is really a pain now. Oh well, I just work around it and rarely use it now - similar to how I work around the horrible diplomacy in the Civilization series. It is a pity too, because the diplomacy was what made GC1 playable for years.
Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
They fixed almost all the problems that you listed - just disable tech trading xD its too easy with tech trading and AI allt rade between themselves, everyone got the same weapon shiled and the race personality is gone


Yes, by disableing tech trading, all the "problems" dissapear. Unfortunately, in order to fix this glaring AI weakness we have had to resort to geting rid of it entirely. To me that is not a solution.

As for most of the things the OP states, I agree completely. I have been trading one tech at a time almost from day one. And when the AI doesn't have lots of cash, then I don't trade at all. I find all the points mentioned very true.

In Civ there are not nearly as many techs, therefore they are valued much greater. I think the tech trading in this system is doomed to failure because they are a dime a dozen. You relearch one tech, then start trading. By the end of the turn, the entire univers takes a quantum leap in technology. I suppose you could increase the cost for technology, but the effect is still the same, it just happens slower.

Instead of just turning it off, I wish they would do it like in Hearts of Iron II. Instead of trading techs, you trade "blueprints". These give you a significant bonus when researching the tech, instead of just giving it to you instantly. I think this would soften the bad effects of tech trading.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I have to admit diplomacy is probably the weak point of galactic civilization 2.

If I'm poor and technology advanced, I can sell all the techs I want for money and the cpu will always accept it.

So you can obtain 5000 bc from minor race by trading like 6-7 outdated tech. That's too easy hehe.

Lot of example like that.

I think the race should be more personalized too. They look too much the same in diplomacy.
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'm with you Martinus.

I am so ambivalent about the changes I can't find a position to vote on in the latest poll. Lots of things that didn't need fixing got fixed
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The first beta of the 1.1 patch had the tech trading nailed down pretty well, I believe. Now it's just horrendous.
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
So far trade worked ok for me. It's difficult enough to get offensive techs like logistics, miniaturization, weapons etc. amd easier to get things like xeno farming etc.
Probably the whole thing depends a lot on your style of playing the game. When going for a diplomatic victory and a high diplomacy rating sometimes the AI practically throws its techs at me and accepts offers I never would. But on the other hand thats what it says in the diplomacy screen ("They think we are practically gods. When we say these aren't te droids they are looking for...). Of course, at some point it gets fairly easy to screw the AI over, but thats what you are trying to do with a high diplomacy rating anyway isn't it? And making it more reluctant to trade anything would probably make it nearly impossible to trade without a high diplomacy score. And somebody whose strategy is not focused on research will be upset if trading for techs would get harder. So its to easy for some and to hard -or at least ok- for others.

What I would like as an option would be a kind of compromise. Instead of "no tech trading" i would like the option "no weapons/defense tech trading" or maybe weapons/defense tech trading only between races that have friendly/close/ally satus - and still needing some money or high value tech to get it.

Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Stupid question:
How/where do I get the betas? I've only got the v1.1 release.
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
No more beta's. Beta's are BEFORE the release, and it's been released now.
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I for one would like to mention again my dislike for the changes that were made for people bitching about tech trading. Now that there is an option for no tech trading, period we still have the "changes" made. I really don't buy the argument I was fed to me once before, "the AI couldn't handle it." IMO since there was an option trading should pretty much been left alone or the way it was. Now trading is REALLY jacked. No idea if they are just messing with you, gotta shell some dough due to diplo imbalance or what. It's so hard to figure out sometimes. I know one thing, If they don't say yes after what I feel I'm offering twice as much stuff (or more) then it is CLOSE WINDOW, NO DEAL.

Again, thanks to overexaggerating like the post above it was changed. My point was for a long time, even if you whored a whole lot purposefully you couldn't turn yourself into the bill gates of the galaxy. At best you'd be lucky to buy an extra colonizer or two.

Suggestions: Diplo Hints or Visual Clues to give the player a clue on how and what(details please) is affecting deals.
On another screen entirely, the foreign policy window theres a ++ , +, - , or -- and whatever issue. IMO that is not enough information to support a player during diplo NOR does it clue people in on why the AI is bending them over.





Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I see two sides here:

1] This is a game. The rules are the rules. If the AI doesn't want to trade tech with you because you're too powerful, oh well. [Extrapolate for other flaws.]

2] The AI has no distinct diplomacy personality for each race. It is a bitter single minded bitch who won't trade you a very obsolete weapon tech that you skipped over in exchange for ten planets, or 10,000BC even if you're on the opposite side of the map. [Extrapolate for other flaws.]

All that say, as a player, of course I'd hope that #2 would be addressed and better diplomacy results. But I can understand if we have to live with #1.
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
- It seems that the AI is currently unwilling to *ever* trade a mining colony (at least in Beta 4B). I just offered the last place AI 80000bc for one, plus nearly all my techs and some planets, and it refused to budge. I understand that it should rate them highly, but that's just insane.


As far as I can see trading these is blocked entirely.

In my last game I offered 100,000 bc, all my planets, and all my ships, all my techs and all my starbases and the AI said no thanks. Thats just stupid to have it refuse any trade deal. I was the leader in the game and was miles ahead of anyone else and had 3/4 of the galaxy under my control. It was a deal the AI should not have turned down as it would have won the game if it had accepted.
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
In my last game I offered 100,000 bc, all my planets, and all my ships, all my techs and all my starbases and the AI said no thanks. Thats just stupid to have it refuse any trade deal. I was the leader in the game and was miles ahead of anyone else and had 3/4 of the galaxy under my control. It was a deal the AI should not have turned down as it would have won the game if it had accepted.


The Human response would be "Hey if he/she is dumb enough to trade all that" I'd be a fool not to take it
Instead the AI is stuck at never trading. Before 1.1 at all, average cost of a starbase was approx 7500 BC sometimes more sometimes a lil less (depending on diplo ). Guess what? People complained it was A) Too Low and B) AI shouldn't do that period. You can get me to agree to A, but not to B. Everything should have a price. Maybe a high price tag or I should say "higher". Even 10x higher would be more realistic (I hate that term, oh well ). The starbase is valued a lot lot more AND it can be traded for, just not real easy...
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yeah, diplomacy is broken.

It was broken before. Supreme Shogun says you couldn't be the "bill gates of the galaxy" by whoring the old system... well, I guess I'm just a naturally gifted whore, because it was ridiculously easy to do just that. The AI doesn't understand the tech trading "game," and instead of giving it a rational strategy, SD tried to spackle it up (temporarily, one hopes) by making the AI demand much more. Well, that's not right, either; now the AI loses by passing up potentially beneficial trades. It didn't understand before, and it doesn't understand now, that the key to tech trading is active, vigorous participation (as soon as a tech is researched by two non-allied players, it should be disseminated almost instantly, as each player who has the tech races to be the one who sells it). I'm not sure Stardock gets it, either.

Tech trading off is the only real option until they fix it properly (or allow it to be modded).
Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'm not sure Stardock gets it, either


Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Virtually all the problems the OP described are the result of the AI approaching trading from a very one-dimensional standpoint. At present, the AI only considers value when trading. This means that the only thing the AI has to go on when determining whether to make a trade is whether the deal is "fair", based on predetermined values and relative diplomacy. In order to avoid major strategic mistakes by the AI, Stardock jacked up the value of things like starbases, flagships, and military techs, because a one-dimensional value system would otherwise allow any reasonable value for those items to be exploited.

The flip side to this is that it's fixable by adding a second dimension to the AI's trade evaluations: need. The AI, at present, has no mechanism to evaluate whether it "needs" a given tech/ship/etc. The closest approximation it has is to alter its perceived trade values when it's at war, but this altered valuation stopgap is not good enough. In order to present a realistic, human-like opponent, the AI needs to evaluate things in terms of what it needs.

If the AI were a real person, it would be a compulsive shopper. Most people, when they are deciding whether to buy something, first ask "Do I need this," or "Do I want this?" If the answer is yes, the next question is: "Is this item worth what I'd have to pay for it?" The AI, on the other hand, skips straight to the second question, which is why it always accepts tech offers, which is why tech trading is screwed up. The AI needs the capacity to evaluate what it needs/wants, and reject offers for things it does NOT need/want, regardless of whether the deal is "fair."
Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Wow, a lot of interesting comments. BigAlSchool, I think you're right that if the AI was able to understand and prioritize its needs and weight the costs of trading vs researching, it would help things a lot. That's probably not a trivial undertaking, though.

I do want to point out, though, that I actually enjoy the whole tech/diplomacy part of the game and my post was mainly intended to explore its behavior rather than gripe about it (though I did certainly point out some issues I saw).
Reply #18 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Tech trading turned off is not solution, it's workaround.
Bad one never the less. Killing game core features for sake of gameplay.

And it could also hurt, AI since they between themself can't trade then.
Reply #19 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I have to admit diplomacy is probably the weak point of galactic civilization 2.


Yeah, diplomacy is broken.


I second those...

Reply #20 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
- It seems when you stack techs together to trade, their value to the AI decreases for some reason. So you seem to generally get more cash if you sell two techs separately than you will if you sell them both in one trade. I'm not sure if that works in your favor if you try buying multiple techs from the AI (definitely worth trying).


It definitely works in some situations. for example, I managed to trade something for the computers harpoon, harpoon II, miniballs and a bit of money. Trying to trade the same thing just for harpoon, and it wouldn't let me have!

I think harpoon II costs less to research that harpoon, so AI values it less, and is willing to let you have it. as harpoon
is before harpoon II in tech tree, AI is then happy if you add this into bargain too, with enough room for another tech!

basic problem here is that AI considers only cost of tech it is trading, NOT taking into accout the value of skipped techs in any way.

Reply #21 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
IMO tech trading as it is currently is OK. If I'm a superpower, they don't sell me weapons tech and related stuff. I also noted they share only a small amount of techs, and some obviously never. The "random" trade is also less frequent, at least from what I can see in debug.err. Only at seme rare times I say bad words about that damn AI that sells tech for a tech, where I had to pay the same tech with 10 of mine.

I admit I do misuse tech trading to some extent. I let the AI research "main" tech lines (factories, labs, banks, and ship techs), while I concentrate on "side" techs: farms, terraforming, entertainment, diplomacy, range,.. anything they don't research. I wait for most civ's to get something others don't have, and then go for a tech shopping. I sell the same few "side" tech to every civ, but each time for another item or two. But here my trade "whoring" ends.

I bought a starbase from them only once, decided it is cheese, and never did that again. Same with ships, planets etc. IMO it is strange to abuse the game feature in a way it wasn't designed for, and then complain about that. If AIs don't abuse it, I too will not do, and the game will remain fun.

BR, Iztok


then check prices for