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Tetrasodium
Tetrasodium
Join Date 03/2006
+17

SUGGESTION: another idea for balancing/differentiating weapon types

February 12, 2015 12:34:04 PM from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

Right now there is little debate that beam weapons are overly powerful ^ the difference between balistic/missiledrops down to different shades of badas a result.  The basic premise for the idea is to add a new component type (reactors).  I can see two good ways of making them work:

  • I'll start with the short one first & do the possible today with xml only (I think) last.  I can't see a way to add a secondary MasCap type stat that weapons have a drain on seperate from their various masses... but if one could be created for energy/power/etc with different weapons having different drains (beam weapons getting a high drain, missile/malistic obviously quite a bit less to varying degrees). reactors can get their own fork on the tech tree getting better as they go up & more powerful weapons having higher power requirements.
  • Now that the basic kernel of the idea is sketched out, the way I can see this sort of thing being accomplished by xml/minor xsl modding only involves the following:
    • raise the base mass of beam weapons significantly (i.e. 75%) from 
    • give give larger (medium & up?) ships progressively larger bonuses to negate some of that bump
      •  lets say a huge hull gets -15% like so


        <Stats>
        <EffectType>BeamMass</EffectType>
        <Target>
        <TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
        </Target>
        <BonusType>Multiplier</BonusType>
        <Value>-15</Value>
        </Stats>
        <Stats>

    • Make a new mass component/subtype  (reactors) with a base ReactorMass of their own that is limited by a  <OnePerShip>true</OnePerShip> to keep from simply stacking them up higher & higher by adding more of them.  Set these modules to offset some of the hit from higher massed beam weapons just like with the ship hulls to where larger hulls might wind up being able to hold a similar/slightly less amount of beams with big enough reactors after the reactor mass is factored in.
    • Perhaps make those reactors also give small multipliers that improve MovesCap, ShipRange, ShieldStrength, ShieldMass, Beam/Missile/KineticCooldown, etc in different branches to account for different reactor type lines being tuned for various specialized needs
  • No conceptual xml example here simply because weapons are so badly out of balance & it's hard to guess where they should be targeted for reasonable results
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Tetrasodium
5myosin
Join Date 03/2010
+2
Reply #1 February 12, 2015 1:12:55 PM
from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

It seems to me that making shields and tactical engines more cost-effective (or just lowering the beam damage) are simpler solutions.

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Tetrasodium
Larsenex
Join Date 04/2009
+212
Reply #2 February 12, 2015 1:19:22 PM
from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

Tetra, please explain what this modification actually does. I am not sure I understand what this would do for ships. 

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Tetrasodium
Tetrasodium
Join Date 03/2006
+17
Reply #3 February 12, 2015 4:16:40 PM
from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

@smyosin, in the current state, the Ai is too drooly &the balance too far off to really do the sort of fine grained tweaking you are suggesting& I suspect that is at least partly stemming from the sd folks wanting to see how certain extremes play out in game & with us

@larsenex... Beam weapons would still be pretty powerful still, /but/ they would be so heavy  that it would be made up for by making everything else able to  compete while also  making more mixed loadouts more effective &efficient since different defense types could be tweaked to allow for giving the different wrapons different roles.

Thanks for the posts guys,  having thought about things a bit since the op and  the comments to help, I think ill put together something quick & dirty for example

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Tetrasodium
Thecw
Join Date 08/2012
+84
Reply #4 February 12, 2015 5:43:26 PM
from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

<BonusType>Multiplier</BonusType>
<Value>-15</Value>

Minus 1500% ? A bit over the top, for this will push the beam mass effect into the negative; the more Beams you place on the ship the more other components you can place.

I think you would mean:

<BonusType>Multiplier</BonusType>
<Value>-0.15</Value>

 
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Tetrasodium
Tetrasodium
Join Date 03/2006
+17
Reply #5 February 12, 2015 5:54:00 PM
from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Larsenex,
reply 2

Tetra, please explain what this modification actually does. I am not sure I understand what this would do for ships. 

here is an extremely quick & dirty implimentationof t he idea built atop my carrier tweak mod.  The new example components  (complete with some "good enough" stats/descriptions/component types) that unlock with first & second tier weapons, & I think sensor/life support module research (like I said it was quiick & dirty good enough example building). all beam weapons are +10 to beammass by default & the new components give a flat negative, mass to all three weapon types (or sensor/life support umm range/mas?) with a negative multiplier  to their specialized type

 

and thecw, yes, I went with flat 5-18ish to all three types and multiplier -.5 to -.10 i think it was for the example I put together (the only testing was "yep, no error & component exists after research"), you were right about the typo & here is a copy/paste from shipcomponentdefs.xml of them

<ShipComponent>
<InternalName>ReactorII</InternalName>
<DisplayName>ReactorII_Name</DisplayName>
<Description>ReactorII_Dec</Description>
<ArtDefine>Hyperdrive_01</ArtDefine>
<Category>Engines</Category>
<OnePerShip>true</OnePerShip>
<Type>Reactor</Type>
<PlacementType>Targeting</PlacementType>

<Stats>
<EffectType>Mass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>12</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>ManufacturingCost</EffectType>
<Scope>Queue</Scope>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>0</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>ShipRange</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Multiplier</BonusType>
<Value>.05</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>BeamMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>-10</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>KineticMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>-13</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>MissileMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>-18</Value>
</Stats>
<Prerequ>
<Techs>
<Option>ParticalBeam</Option>
<Option>Stinger</Option>
<Option>Railgun</Option>
</Techs>
</Prerequ>
</ShipComponent>

 

<ShipComponent>
<InternalName>ReactorIIs</InternalName>
<DisplayName>ReactorIIs_Name</DisplayName>
<Description>ReactorIIs_Dec</Description>
<ArtDefine>Hyperdrive_01</ArtDefine>
<Category>Engines</Category>
<OnePerShip>true</OnePerShip>
<Type>Reactor</Type>
<PlacementType>Targeting</PlacementType>
<Stats>
<EffectType>ManufacturingCost</EffectType>
<Scope>Queue</Scope>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>0</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>SensorRangeMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Multiplier</BonusType>
<Value>-.2</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>ShipRangeMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Multiplier</BonusType>
<Value>-.2</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>BeamMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>-6</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>KineticMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>-8</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>MissileMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>-8</Value>
</Stats>
<Prerequ>
<Techs>
<Option>BasicLifeSupport</Option>
<Option>NavigationalSensors</Option>

</Techs>
</Prerequ>
</ShipComponent>

 


<ShipComponent>
<InternalName>ReactorIIb</InternalName>
<DisplayName>ReactorIIb_Name</DisplayName>
<Description>ReactorIIb_Dec</Description>
<ArtDefine>Hyperdrive_01</ArtDefine>
<Category>Engines</Category>
<OnePerShip>true</OnePerShip>
<Type>Reactor</Type>
<PlacementType>Targeting</PlacementType>
<Stats>
<EffectType>ManufacturingCost</EffectType>
<Scope>Queue</Scope>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>0</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>BeamMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>-10</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>BeamMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Multiplier</BonusType>
<Value>-.1</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>KineticMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>-18</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>MissileMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>-3</Value>
</Stats>
<Prerequ>
<Techs>
<Option>ParticalBeam</Option>
</Techs>
</Prerequ>
</ShipComponent>

 

 


<ShipComponent>
<InternalName>ReactorIIk</InternalName>
<DisplayName>ReactorIIk_Name</DisplayName>
<Description>ReactorIIk_Dec</Description>
<ArtDefine>Hyperdrive_01</ArtDefine>
<Category>Engines</Category>
<OnePerShip>true</OnePerShip>
<Type>Reactor</Type>
<PlacementType>Targeting</PlacementType>
<Stats>
<EffectType>ManufacturingCost</EffectType>
<Scope>Queue</Scope>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>0</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>BeamMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>-10</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>KineticMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Multiplier</BonusType>
<Value>-.1</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>KineticMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>-18</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>MissileMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>-3</Value>
</Stats>
<Prerequ>
<Techs>
<Option>Railgun</Option>
</Techs>
</Prerequ>
</ShipComponent>

 


<ShipComponent>
<InternalName>ReactorIIm</InternalName>
<DisplayName>ReactorIIm_Name</DisplayName>
<Description>ReactorIIm_Dec</Description>
<ArtDefine>Hyperdrive_01</ArtDefine>
<Category>Engines</Category>
<OnePerShip>true</OnePerShip>
<Type>Reactor</Type>
<PlacementType>Targeting</PlacementType>
<Stats>
<EffectType>ManufacturingCost</EffectType>
<Scope>Queue</Scope>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>0</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>BeamMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>-10</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>MissileMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Multiplier</BonusType>
<Value>-.1</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>KineticMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>-18</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>MissileMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>-3</Value>
</Stats>
<Prerequ>
<Techs>
<Option>Stinger</Option>
</Techs>
</Prerequ>
</ShipComponent>

<ShipComponent>
<InternalName>ReactorI</InternalName>
<DisplayName>ReactorI_Name</DisplayName>
<Description>ReactorI_Dec</Description>
<ArtDefine>Hyperdrive_01</ArtDefine>
<Category>Engines</Category>
<OnePerShip>true</OnePerShip>
<Type>Reactor</Type>
<PlacementType>Targeting</PlacementType>
<Stats>
<EffectType>Mass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>10</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>ManufacturingCost</EffectType>
<Scope>Queue</Scope>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>0</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>ShipRange</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Multiplier</BonusType>
<Value>.05</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>BeamMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>-5</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>KineticMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>-12</Value>
</Stats>
<Stats>
<EffectType>MissileMass</EffectType>
<Target>
<TargetType>Ship</TargetType>
</Target>
<BonusType>Flat</BonusType>
<Value>-10</Value>
</Stats>
<Prerequ>
<Techs>
<Option>WeaponsSystemsTech</Option>
</Techs>
</Prerequ>
</ShipComponent>

 

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