This not necessarily the case. It many aspects of the Vasari it's true, but there are some mechanics that are intrinsically overpowered.  The most common example is things which don't have adequate counterplay options.  It's not just the raw power, but the fact there is no way to shut the mechanics down.  The Micro Phase Jump Maw combo is arguably an example of this.

There are also tools that at their current level of power are just toxic to gameplay- a good example here would be vasari bombers or jumping starbases,  it would not be good for the game to just for example make every race's bombers as powerful as vasari ones.

And frankly when it comes down to it, it's just not efficient to do all balancing via buffs.  When 1 race or faction s causing balance problems it makes no sense to go through a ton of effort buffing every other faction when you can fix the problem by nerfing a single faction.  In cases like titans this is especially a problem-  no amount of simple number changes will give the Ragnarov or Kultorask's level 6 abilities the uncounterability of The Maw- new effect would have to be added in almost every case- that's a ton of work and thought required for something that could be addressed with a single nerf.

 Only using buffs sounds great in principal to players who can't deal with the thought of having their OP tools nerfed, but realistically it leads to power inflation which will make the game MUCH harder to balance in the long run.

There's a reason game balancing involves both buffs and nerfs.  Using only buffs tends to result in a game that satisfies players who like "big impressive" effects but lacks the requisite balance for a truly strategic experience.

And if the enemy has equal resources and time at his disposal, why should he be unable to counter your tool?  You shouldn't sieze a decisive advantage against an equally strong player who has made no mistakes just because your race has an "I win" button and his doesn't

Moreover no matter how late game a tool is, being uncounterable is inherently toxic for a strategy game.  The whole point of having a complex set of tools and counters is that no strategy, no unit is absolute.  if the enemy sees it coming, acts appropriately, and has enough resources they can annul the tool and force you to not put all of your proverbial marbles in one basket.

 Honestly again the problem with the Maw isn't really with the ability it's self.  Micro Phase Jump is the real problem.  Every other insta-kill AoE has counterplay via which they can be completely dissarmed(causing negligable casualties).

 Other titan AoEs can be avoided via kiting.  Wail can be avoided via Kostura/Novaliths,  by destroying/disabling temples of communion or via the Vorastra's ability to plant phase stabilizers.  Red button can be avoided by noticing the starbase can self destruct and keeping a safe distance, killing it with bombers.

There is no way to stop a micro-jump Maw combo from taking a large chunk out of your fleet and giving the VL player resources to boot.  If there's a problem with the Maw it's not the potential magnitude of the effect- it's the  lack of adaquate counter-options.

This is a gross exaggeration.  just about every other titan is perfectly fine and they are still complete gamechangers(even the weakest ones).  Yes, ALL titans and ALL tools for that matter should have a suitable tradeoff that the disadvantages of building them early are comparable to the advantages- otherwise it's not strategy it's a nobrainer.  Titans should be A tool in your repertoire, not THE tool.

Again I take a conservative stance that we should see how the desperation changes shake out first, but the chance that the vorastra will need some more work afterwards is far from insignificant.  Also as I said, I think if anything Micro Phase Jump is more the problem then the Maw- so if it should be deemed necessary after the enxt patch that may be a better area to focus upon.

Then again to be fair for me this discussion isn't even about the Vorastra anymore.  What I'm more argueing against is your mindset- in reality in my mind I'm arguing with every other player across multiple games I've played who I've seen argue the "Never use nerfs, do all balancing via buffs" point.  I have a long history of thinking this point of view is impractical at best and in most cases very bad for long term game balance.

Timmaigh, you aren't getting on/off switches for tech.  Star Trek Armada II had that option for science vessels and superweapons, unfortunately that was 2001 and after that games are not permitted to have similar options or Activision will send hordes of butt-reaming, monkey-lawyers to do terrible things to the programmers.

The jumping orkie doesn't need to be a jumping orkie.  The vasari are fleeing, not their starbases.  They are ditching their shit and running for the boonies -and hoping to take some human and advent slaves... I mean buddies along for the ride because all the years of war have really helped everyone bond.  I think the vasari are just F*ing with everyone and this is just their ultimate chance to enslave tec/advent rebels and come back later to bitch slap the Orion arm with a nano-trout.

What makes VR banned is the jumping starbase.  Eliminate that and what is there to bitch about; game on, right?  Stardock wants jumping orkies and community doesn't.  There really is no reason game-wise for a jumping starbase.  Trinity demanded some balls to plant down an orky in the enemy gravity well.  You needed some support to run that colony ship in and get the starbase going and then run it through the gravity well.  It's just too easy to build the orky in a safe, cozy gravity well and then once upgraded ram it down the enemy's throat, which is why the faction is banned.  Time to roll it back.

Last night in a 5s, Traxin had 128 bombers up against a level 6 Vorastra that some dbag, who was the last player on opposing team, left sitting after he had essentially afk'd. 

Everyone watched in amazement as, no exaggeration here - that thing, an "afk" Titan mind you, spun in place, and otherwise moved with impunity for a good 25-30 minutes while devouring anything & everything in it's reach.  It actually went to level 9 during this time, and only after multiple high level Kortuls, along with progressively more and more bombers went toe to toe with it, did it go down. 

This was something that was painful to watch as the whole time you're thinking, "If this monster is that preposterous to take down while it's an afk'rs, what kind of behemoth would it be with a "live" player?"

If the game hadn't mini'd, the replay would have been a textbook study of OP, and best evidence out there to nerf that thing.

And while I do get that Orkies are about all the Vas really have in terms of a de facto instrument at their disposal that they are literally forced to employ, the Vorastra just gets plain stooopid almost after level 4.

Fair enough- and as I said I may have been getting a bit fervent on the issue due to similarities to past arguments.

Again fair enough-  Honestly as long as there is a solid counter the magnitude doesn't matter.  The tricky part is working a solid counter into something that has special mechanisms that avoid every conventional counter.

 Part of the difficulty though is the lack of framework.  The Vasari are strong because they have a ton of gamechangers(things like phase stabilizers, phase missiles, moving starbases, and the like).   When it comes down to it there simply put aren't that many gamechanging effects in the Advent/TEC toolkit.  it would have to be a matter of creating entirely new tools rather then just buffing existing ones.  Which presents come difficulties.

 The thing is stalemates have never really been a huge problem in Sins.  offensive outscales defense pretty much accross the board and only one race really has the economy to replenish casualties effectively.  Even the average titans are massive forces of attrition.

A tool of the potency of the Maw is by no means necessary to ensure games actually end.  Game enders should be powerful, but they still need to be counterable by an opponent who sees them coming and has sufficient resources available.

For these tools to actually form a counter it would need to be possible to fully AM drain the Vorastra before it can micro-phase jump and activate the Maw- an action that takes 10-15 seconds tops.  And much of that time period the Voratra will likely be out of range of the capitalships with AM drain as it will be chasing kiting carriers.

Sending capitalships alone into a vasari fleet with no frigate support isn't an option either due to how good phase missiles are at killing capitalships.

But again, I think any balancing should be targeted on removing/reducing the usefulness of micro phase jump for setting up the maw.  if the Voratra could actually be effectively kited like every other titan The Maw would be entirely reasonable.

That is a good point. An AM cost increase, at least at earlier levels, might be justified. I think that it is not unreasonable to expect the Vorastra to get off one good micro phase jump/maw combo, but any after that should be fairly hard to do if your opponent brings the right ships.

1. I honestly would like to see a way to put together my own fleet designs so that my fleet flies a certain way. I like the idea of having Far, Normal, or Close on how i want my ships to move around the flagship but honestly I'd like to see it more in depth like being able to make my titan the center of my fleet and making my ships in a semi circle around it or something like that. And on that note has anyone else had any problems with ship movement in a fleet, esspecially in the Advent, it just seems like ships don't jump at the same time, or do stupid things like the Guardian popping its ability at the edge of a grav well rather then in fight.

2. I would like to see an on/off switch for super weapons, or maybe a more worth while balance for them it just seems like the TEC and Vasari get great secondary abilities with their supers and the Advent get kind of screwed over. I mean the TEC get the most powerful one but its countered by starbases, planet health, or Ion Field Generator. But even if you stop the initial death of your planet the income is still screwed over. With the Vasari, you get pretty crap damage but you get a stun which can ruin well put together defenses, stop research, or mess an economy or ship building up entirely if used correctly, also they get a phase node which means they can easily jump to pretty much anywhere in the system without so much as a "boo". The Advent get a 10% drop to allegiance, and a culture boost but both are really lack luster and easy to counter, the only reason to try and use it is for the dmg buff from moving into what ever you fired it at but it really doesn't make a huge difference unless your using it specifically for that purpose

3. The Minidumps and late game lag I know can be fixed we've seen moders and other games do it but never really set down and heard stardock work on the issue.

4. Honestly the Eradica (AR Titan), needs a nerf, and the Coronata (AL Titan), needs a buff, the Ankylon (TL Titan) needs to have some of its skills adjusted so that its more useful and not just a dead wait with its skills are on CD. The other three titans I like and think they are well put together, and Titans need to lose levels when they die not just some xp not a level all of them, they go back to zero like everything else that dies. It makes no sense to have them keep them and honestly that alone would balance the Eradica's stupidly OP ulti

You have to micromanage a lot with Advent. I haven't had jump problems but if at any time something is shooting at a guardian and there are nearby allied ships that aren't covered by a guardian, it will use that ability. You just have to turn the ability off autocast to prevent that.

They do, but you have to email them minidumps to take a look at. Both can also be caused by hardware issues, so if you don't have a lot of RAM or a CPU with small individual cores there might not be much that can be done.

I'm not against an early game AL culture buff, but they already have a useless tier 2 culture tech. Making that actually useful seems a better approach to me.

that makes no sense if thats the case then someone can just run they're lvl 6 eradica into a fleet munch most of it while its invincible and then move the rest of they're fleet in and mop up, either you stay and get munched, run away and lose the planet and if you do run then you now have to make the decision to move forward hoping you have enough left over to kill they're fleet or hang back all the while the other person is rebuilding they're titan, the time and cost is irrelevant late game i have no problem at all fielding a replacement for my titan the money is little compared to a late game economy and the time it takes you to burn a fleet, push past defenses and planets i could do it all over again and much a fleet

The Advent Rebels have wail and the ability to revive destroyed ships, which makes them feel a bit different, since these abilities have an active presence in the game. But I agree the loyalists feel a bit bland by comparison  most of their techs are just +% bonus, minus global unity and coward's submission, which just kind of happen.

That said, again I think cost/benefit global unit is in a good place. They certainly don't need any research removed, perhaps the tier 2 extra culture tech could give another bonus, like extra antimatter or shield regeneration bonus in culture.

Why in the world are you judging the Eradica on how long it takes to destroy a starbase? It's a fleet killer, and it can do that in half has long as it has invulnerability time now, not to mention how much it can destroy while it is alive. Four minutes of invulnerability while getting the bonuses from its ultimate while alive is way too much, and it especially hurts the single player crowd. If there is one thing to give in on, this is it because it hurts them a lot, and hardly influences multiplayer at all.

Honestly I think their techs with the most potential for direct, obvious, and interesting effects on gameplay would be:

Planet for a Planet: Imagine if this tech were actually reliable and strong enough that bombarding the planet of an Advent Loyal player who might have a large fleet in reserve or attacking your planets could actually be a bad idea as it may give the Advent Loyal player a decisive advantage.  If this tool were better it could lay the groundwork for all sorts of traps and feints on the advent loyal player's part to give the buff to a well positioned fleet.  At present this tech is just too circumstantial for a tech with so high of a cost(the loss of a planet).  It's effect should be strong and broad enough to reliably make a difference

Fury of the Unity:  yes it's just a % damage increase, but it's a T8 in-culture combat tech which requires the advent loyal player to go deep in the dreaded harmony tree(which does precious little for them after T3).  It could reasonably be much stronger then it is now.  The zone control this tech could provide if the damage bonus were large enough to be a decisive advantage even in late game battles would as a whole make culture a very strong tool for the Advent Loyals.  The game would play very differently if fighting a late game advent LOyal fleet in their culture with a remotely comparable fleet simply wasn't an option.

Coward's submission:  You say the effects are automatic, but honestly I think the very fact that it rewards forcing the enemy to retreat creates a lot of implied strategy.  The main problem with the tech is it's benefit is fairly small(not large enough to actually make the opponent think twice about retreating in a situation they would ordinarily retreat) and honestly it's most just attrition as you're very likely to lose the converted ships as they are jumping right into the middle of the enemy fleet.  That said I think this tech has the least potential to be game changing of the three.

But yeah, overall the Advent Loyals sort of got the short straw in terms of new gamechanging effects- and even their techs with potential to be game changing simply don't have the strength or reliability to do the job.

I would just like to see some more diversity between the two factions for advent, I don't mind that the loyalist are culture intensive I actually like using culture as a weapon but late game its easy to deal with and honestly its buffs are only good half way through the game. 

The Mind control aspect for the loyalist i like a lot. The part that I don't like is that they take up fleet supply and can ruin you micro managing if it gets capped at the wrong time. I would like to see the Advent Loyalist take a more culture and Mind control approach so that they could have something worth while in the AoE category. Maybe if there was a research that would allow for more useful mind controls and maybe to allow them to not take up fleet cap so they don't ruin fleet crafting and such. Just for the AL so to make them have a different approach of maybe not fielding higher power ships like the other races but having the ability to take over ships so that makes people think before you just jump in and wipe them up. Also maybe changing it so that MC'd units retain their researches and upgrades but don't benefit from anything you have since technically the technologies wouldn't be compatible.

For the Advent Rebels I'd like to see a more aggressive stand point, it says in their bio that they think the Advent have lost their grasp on their destiny and maybe they should move away from culture a little bit and maybe aim more towards weapons or ships, strength, I like the idea of them having wail but maybe lean them more towards ship abilities, like SB upgrades, faster ship casting, etc etc maybe even bring back the anima pact for them so they can field more SC to make them more aggressive

Really? TEC Loyalists get a 30% weapons and 4 armor buff and just for being in an owned gravity well. I think Fury of the Unity could have been the Tier 2 tech after the first two culture upgrades considering it's only a 10% buff which would help early game but hardly be game changing mid or late game. T8 should be game changing which this is clearly not.

That said, one problem with the tech is that it's damage bonus doesn't affect strikecraft.  I can see why this is the case being that strikecraft cease to exist during phase jumps(so any buffs would be lost in a jump), but it's fairly restricting that Planet for a Planet doesn't affect one of the most important types of weapon damage late game- not to mention the Advent's premier anti-fortification damage source, the Bomber.  

It would be ideal- though not the highest priority- if carriers under the effect of the buff shared the damage bonus with their strikecraft(We know this is engine-possible because of concentration Aura).

This would be fantastic as it would encourage the Advent loyals to embrace the classic Advent tactic of "forget the harmony tree, all the good stuff is in Hostility".  The Advent Loyals in general has their goodies too split up between trees- Ancient ret is T6 hostility, Fury T8 harmony, and all their low tier techs are trash.

I'd still like to see the old base rank 0 value of 5% brought back though- Advent loyals should get some inherent combat boosts in-culture.   perhaps a slight increase from 0->20% to 5->25%

This could be handy.  Personally though I'd just prefer a larger conversion chance- nothing will make an opponent think twice about fleeing more then greater attrition.