Starbase Mobilization - is indeed a cool tech, great idea, prime reason to play Vas Rebels. It was just implemented poorly, although to be fair to the devs, i am not sure if it was technically possible to do it completely right...but they could at least try to make the whole situation better by applying some deeper changes - i like for example the idea with SB mobilization being possible only between phasegates, or phase engines as one of the SB upgrades...instead they just tweak the numbers and try to nerf it that way, which is shame. The suggested ideas are IMHO better ways to do it, but i suppose more work to be done as well. BTW do the Vasari Rebels have Rapid SB deployment tech? If yes, i think they shouldnt.
It was often suggested to change it that way. The developers decided to find other ways to nerf it.
Wail of the Sacrificed - is in my view terrible. Not because of what it does, but because of the way, how it does its thing. Clicking the button to kill the planet and in process enemy fleet in adjacent gravwell is just plain boring. Even if it requires bit of skill/luck like the Maw, its still not the same, as no ship is involved. Its really the same like SttC, that one would be so much better, as i believe we previously agreed, if it was a Vorastra ability (be it first/second level Maw or Desperation replacement).
Wait... you complain about Wail but you love The Maw? Who is far more dangerous? Who kills entire fleets with the hit of one button? Sounds hypocritical to me.
BTW SttC, prime example of toning the things to the point, where they become useless and you are most of the times better keeping the planet. I realize it had to be nerfed from its initial form, as it allowed VL to go even 1v2, but surely there was some middleground between OP - pointless, as far as balance is concerned. Now as i see it, its just situational gimmick, you shall do it, only if you are unable to keep the planet, or in general you have no reason to go fully mobile, unless you are forced to, in which case you probably lost anyway. I assume in multiplayer match, if you are unlikely to win, like under this circumstance, you are expected to surrender, right?
STTC balancing is perfectly fine right now. The idea of STTC was NEVER that you could streamroll 1v3 because you received a huge income boost. The idea was always more a weapon of denial. And it is still one of the most powerful things in the game. No other faction can PERMANENTLY DENY anyone a planet... STTC can. Add kostura to the picture and you understand why Vasari can let terror reign. They will jump to your capital and bomb in into oblivion in no time. Then they will trigger STTC. Which means you have exactly 5 minutes to:
- Destroy the Vasari fleet or force it into retreat (good luck with that, Vasari are already the most powerful faction military wise)
- Bomb the planet (and beg for mercy that he did not buy any fortifications upgrades for it
- Recolonize it.
If you dont make it.... your capital is gone.
Likely your fleet will be far away when he jumps in.... expect your capital and 1 or 2 adjacent planets to be stripped. Once your fleet is there, he will just drop a stabilizer node and jumping out... without you getting off as much as a shoot.
Finally, the Maw. I have seen AI on hard using it. It actually caught me on surprise and killed large chunk of my Enforcers, which i carelessly left to group in front of the Titan. Obviously, the AI is still limited, so I would prefer better AI instead of nerfing "unfair" things to make up for the AI´s incapability to use these unfair things themselves.
The AI uses Maw. Just not remotly as deadly as an human player.
Things rarely need a nerf because the AI uses them. They need a nerf because a human uses them smartly.
I think that Wail is not used by the AI only for one reason: The developers have - justified - concerns that new players who dont know the ability would scream bloody murder when their fleet dissapears without reason. That could lead to bad mouth marketing of the game, and they understandably want to avoid that.
As far as keeping things OP, i would rather call it keeping things powerful/potentially game-changing. Personally it motivates me to keep playing the game toward its late stages, cause i know, there are some super cool things for me to use. I dont want to give up on them in favor of perfect balance, which is IMHO superficial thing anyway.
All things are still game changing enough, even after the hardest of nerfs.
Yes, I have no doubt it motivates YOU. But it utterly DEMOTIVATES the people who want to play TEC or Advent. Because their powerful toys are more balanced and as such dont stand a change against the Vasari ones.
Balancing is not superficial. It is imperative for the games long time enjoyment, both in SP and in MP. And you dont have to give them up. You just will have to live with them being not an
I WIN BUTTON
You like Vasari... thats fine. But 66 % of all players likely favour TEC or Advent. Should their enjoyment of the game suffer for yours?
Besides, if there is no challenge at all, where is the long term fun?
@ Aresiv> the thing with things like dual SBs seen in multiplayer rarely just reinforces my point about multiplayer being generally too narrow minded about how the game should be played. The whole issue with TEC Loyalists is directly connected to this, the devs wanted them to be late-game strong economic/defensive faction, winning the games by the means of attrition. Too bad the multiplayer crowd does not like that, as it can take bit too long. So what to do with them now? Should they be completely scrapped/rebalanced, as being defensive does not cut with multiplayer crowd?
Multiplayer is quite varied, if you just look arround a bit. There are plently of longer games running. Yes, there is a "pro" scene here that rarely gets above using 3 Labs. But they are not the only ones playing in MP.
As for Twin Fortresses, the ability has one major flaw.
Things that are capable of killing one starbase can usually kill 2 starbases just as easily.
As for the late game strong economic side of the TEC Loyalists, it is not existant. Because their late game is not strong, in fact it is the weakest of all late games. They cannot win wars of attrition... not against TEC Rebel and Advent and most certainly not against Vasari.
The bottom line is:
Having two starbases, maxed out defenses and a fleet at EVERY world.. (which cost a fortune to build) and as many novalith as possible wont win you the game. Not even against the AI. Against even a LAN buddy... forget it.
Yes, thats right. Even in late game and with enemies that allowed your to build up such mighty defenses, even then... they fail.
The game could last for one week of real time... and you still could not win with TEC Loyalist. They dont do enough damage to the enemy to put him out of business.
TEC Loyalists are my favourite faction..... I love the Anklyon..... you just should not expect to win anything with them. And that is bad.... against the AI... against an LAN buddy and against human players in online multiplayer.
So it needs be adressed.
Further regarding Vorastra, i was comparing lone Titan vs carriers situation. Clearly there is plethora of more likely situations to occur, and if the gravity well is full of enemy ships, its not that easy to set up you carriers to move unharmed overall the whole gravwell. But if there are other enemy ships than Vorastra, chances are there are other your ships beyond your carriers as well. Perhaps even the Titan of your own. That may again change the situation quite a bit.
Actually this is the most likely situation to occur. Because anything but carriers does not stand a remote change against a mid level and above Titan.
Your logic works in theory but not in practise. And having your Titan and other ships there wont help you a bit against the Maw.
- When your carriers die, the Vasari ones are still alive. That means you will have a full Vasari fleet against your few remaining ships that were not eaten.
- That does probably include carriers
- But even without carriers the full Vasari fleet will destroy your fleet - effortlessy. Because they are OP.
- Your Titan - should it be still alive - cant do a thing against that.
- It needs to retreat at once, or it will be phased missiled into oblivion.
The other thing, yes, my fav faction are Vasari Loyalists. I cant really compare them to other factions, as i did not play other factions enough to do that comparison. All i know, they are cooler for me than the other factions, as the mobility theme just floats my boat. Still, if the others feel, they are stronger than the other factions, i would prefer the others to be buffed in some meaningful way. Look at Advent Loyalists for example, they have cool Titan in Coronata, all what it takes to make them competitive is (from what i could gather) is improvement to their lousy economy and making culture bit more prominent. So repossesing enemy world and spreading culture from it right away becomes a viable tactic, which only prepared enemy can deal with.
It is cool if you love Vasari Loyalists. It really is. But this does not justify them being unstoppable for all other factions.
Ahh... so to stand a change against the Maw, for example Wail would need to do the following:
50000 damage to all adjacent planets
25000 damage to all adjacent + 1 planets
cultural domination of all affected planets for 1 hour
kills all affected planets
Doesnt sound fun? Well, guess how much fun it is to loose against vasari with Advent, because you dont stand a chance.
Yes, the Advent in general have several underlying issues. The Advent Rebels are only competivly because they have Wail and the Eradica as compensation.Take that away and they are actually worse than the Advent Loyalists, who dont happen to be particularly powerful either.
Currently the power ranking goes like
- Vasari Loyalist - Best general fleet, unrivaled mobility, good Titan below Level 6 and OP Titan above.
- Vasari Rebels - best general fleet best starbase, excellent Titan on all levels.
- Advent Rebels - Wail only reason for rank 3.... Eradica awesome and above level 6 more deadly than Ragnarov but extremely vulnerable against Phase Missiles and so poor performance against Vasari. Very good fleet... until it gets eaten.
- TEC Rebels: Very powerful titan without any major flaws, best economy to support said Titan with a large fleet.
- Advent Loyalists: Best Titan killing Titan. Some nasty late game buffs. However poor AOE abilities and highly vulnerable against phase missiles.
- TEC Loyalists: Defense only slightly better than TEC Rebel defense. Economic advantage minor and not relevant in late game. Worse late game performance than TEC Rebels, mostly because of the Anklyon. Worst Titan, subpar abilities and no tech that is worthwile.
As for preperations, many thing can kill you if you are not prepared and if they are used by a smart human. However against the Maw the only preperation is to never let the Vorastra reach level 6. Which is usually impossible. Once it has Level 6, they only thing you are preparing is your ragequit.
Last but not least, if you dont regularly play all factions, I would ask that you exercise restraint about the game balancing. Only if you play all factions regularly you can make good jugdements about what is to strong and what is to weak.
no phase jumping starbases period -just a crap idea with no true way to balance except by removal. Give all starbases movement within gravity well. velocities: 150 for vasari, 75 for advent/tec.
As it is one of the Vasari Rebels primary factional things, It most likely wont go.
Its balancing at least has come down to halfway bearable levels by now.
Moving starbases for all factions has been suggested countless times. It is clear by now, that it wont happen.
What could however happen and what would be a very good idea is a speed nerf of the Orky. It should move at a third of its current speed.
Tec Loyalists: 10% shield ignoring autocannons.
Kol Railgun: Affects only Hull please
- Doesnt fit the lore very well.
- Doesnt help very much, because neither the Anklyon nor the starbase has ACs.
Better ideas imho:
- Beam weapon upgrade: 30 % range increase, 50 % firepower increase.
- Beams on the Kodiak Heavy cruiser.
Kol Railgun = nice idea.
Advent Repossession -destroys all enemy structures (not starbases, nor mines) or flips them to your faction.
Nice idea, however it would make the faction absolutly OP against TEC Loyalists.
UberInvincible Advent Titan on death -reduce invincibility time and disable ability to phase jump. Does killing player get the XP before or after the invulnerability? Not much of an advent player, but I thought someone mentioned players jumping out their titan to deny enemy the xp.
- Invincible time is fine. Because the only things that can kill a level 6 Eradica is a starbase or kiting carriers. The carriers are unaffected by Unyielding will. And the starbase god damm needs to die if I loose my Titan. The Eradica doesnt perform very well against starbases.
- The XP loss is acceptable. Please consider that once it runs out of targets (maybe 30 seconds usually) the invulnerable Eradica adds a further delay to the rebuild phase. That is a disadvantage.