[Diplomacy] Vasari Midgame Strategy and Fleet Size

from Sins Forums

After playing an MP unfair comp stomp last night, I got to thinking..  While I'm pretty confident in my ability to expand early-game (significantly faster than the AI and faster than most players I've seen) and know how to wreak havoc late-game with phase missiles, Kosturas, Orky assault deployment, Ruiners, etc, I'm not as confident in my mid-game.

For example, in the game I played last night, I expanded faster than my TEC human ally (actually, about twice as fast) in a linear path with an Evacuator, scooping up every planet in my path, heading straight for the enemy worlds.  When I got there, I immediately began to expand sideways until I hit a pirate base which I knew would keep the enemy out until late-game.  By doing so, I had effectively blocked off about a third of the map for my own use (I would have done more, but I wanted to leave my ally with a decent amount of worlds).  I proceeded to capture an enemy planet in the way of my sideways expansion on the way.  Now what?

Yes, I had just claimed a large chunk of the map, so I naturally began capturing it with a second fleet let by a Skirantra and focused more on strike craft and flak than my main (which was about 80% assailants) while my Evacuator and it's fleet guarded the border worlds while Orkies were contructed where necessary.  Eventually, I was #1 in both empire and economy across all subcategories.  In fleet, I was dead last, though first in defenses.

Eventually, I had accrued enough ships and research in the late-game, that I went on the attack, and facing an Advent adversary, wasn't difficult to win.

 

My question then is is there anything else I could do during mid-game?  

Also, I know I always have a tiny fleet, not even thinking of purchasing the first fleet increase research until mid-game, at which point I do for the sake of creating a second fleet.  In late-game, I'll just mass produce fleets and will typically research most of the fleet supply ones.  Is there anything necessarily wrong with having such a tiny fleet?  Players I've seen (and I know the AI does this) will purchase the next fleet capacity upgrade very rapidly, yet I don't bother attacking at this phase of the game so I don't even care how much they outnumber me.  Worse case scenario, I sick an Orky on them if they try to attack me.  I guess my strategy might be best described as follows...

EXPAND!!!!!!
tank
tank
tank
NUKE!

Vasari are certainly powerful late-game once all toys are unlocked and IMO seem to be able to expand faster than the rest, but suffer in the mid-game.  Is this just me or is it supposed to be like this, and in either case, what could I do that would be more productive?

strategy
6,291 views 11 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

no takers?

Multiplicity - Control multiple PCs using one keyboard and mouse
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Then why are you in the strategy section?

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

Vasari have the worst mid game of all 3.  Usually your mid game with vasari revolves around 3 startegies (assuming you aren't just defending with ton of flak). 1) You mass Light Carriers for bomber runs to take out caps, structures and bases.  2) You get HC to bust up mass flak 3) You work towards RA, neglecting fleet.  Usually #3 is an ace in the hole, and it will turn a tide of a game towards your team, if they can hold out.

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

First off, thanks for the response.

I generally do begin putting out large amounts of LC and HC during this time with the focus being based upon what my opponent is using more of.

Anyways, why exactly then is RA so powerful?  Is it simply that it produces ships at a cheaper rate than factories, that it comes with phase nodes, that it frees up logistics slots, or something else entirely?

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

Main reason is that it produces ships cheaply.  Last time I tried to calculate it came up to your ships being 2/3 their cost.

The second reason is that it produces ships really fast. 

Fact that it can free up logistics only comes into play on larger maps.  In that case, phase gates themselves free up logistics too, since you only need one planet with factories and you can jump your fleet to the front lines.  And at the same time you do need to also sacrifice some logistics for extra labs.  So this point is mostly mute.  But the first two make it more than worth it.  However, surviving till you can spam RA can be a tricky proposition. 

 

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

Okay, thank you.  Also, do you think I'm handicapping myself by waiting to expand my military?  If I get rushed, I'll bulk up, but presuming that I don't, I leave it low until the end.

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

I don't know much about the Vasari, but let me give a response...

If you have a cookie-cutter strategy and it works great, try to develop a second one. For instance, RA was mentioned above; If you're going for RA every game, you're leaving yourself vulnerable during the mid game, so what if someone attacks en masse at that point? how would you handle that? is pushing for RA still your answer? maybe you want to go phase missilin' or something, I  don't know....

I would randomly decide to treat any attack as the worst case scenario and build from there until you have an alternative strategy. Then, you have options and variety.

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

Technically, the Vasari are their weakest mid-game by design. Their an early then late game race. Generally, it's a good idea to try to rush late game as quick as your enemies will let you. Try to stick to guerilla tactics. The Vasari fleet was meant to troll and fight dirty. Hit and run. Avoid full confrontation until prepared.

My 2 cents. 

 

Oh and use their Starbase offensively if you can. One of the strongest rushes a Vasari fleet can use early game.

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 7
Okay, thank you.  Also, do you think I'm handicapping myself by waiting to expand my military?  If I get rushed, I'll bulk up, but presuming that I don't, I leave it low until the end.
End of Volt_Cruelerz's quote

 

Unless you are playing Econ early game (Like in MP surrounded by friendly players, or vs not too bright AI), you should press your early advantage.  You can easily take territory from enemy.  Then when you stall midgame it's usually time to put defenses around your boarders while you get critical mass so that enemy starbases wont be able to stop you. 

VS easier AIs you can neglect military for sure.  That's just playing for late game.  But I tend to just roll over the nearest AI and take his planets, then pause my military, build bases to defend.  I then get RA or spam carriers.  With either RA or mass bombers you can roll through any fortified enemy world.

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Astax, reply 10

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 7Okay, thank you.  Also, do you think I'm handicapping myself by waiting to expand my military?  If I get rushed, I'll bulk up, but presuming that I don't, I leave it low until the end.

 

Unless you are playing Econ early game (Like in MP surrounded by friendly players, or vs not too bright AI), you should press your early advantage.  You can easily take territory from enemy.  Then when you stall midgame it's usually time to put defenses around your boarders while you get critical mass so that enemy starbases wont be able to stop you. 

VS easier AIs you can neglect military for sure.  That's just playing for late game.  But I tend to just roll over the nearest AI and take his planets, then pause my military, build bases to defend.  I then get RA or spam carriers.  With either RA or mass bombers you can roll through any fortified enemy world.
End of Astax's quote

Okay, that sounds like it is more or less what I'm doing.  I will take over any relatively undefended worlds (or if I know that their main fleet is on the other side of their territory) in my path to block of a sector of the map but won't start doing minor incursions until I seal it off typically unless I know that I can use that planet to block off a larger segment and will succeed in taking it before their fleet arrives in sufficient numbers to actually kill mine.  I'll try to put more emphasis on RA later in the game though.