Sarudak

Join Date 12/2006

+23

[.86 Suggestion] Faction Differentiation 2 : Techs

Now I know everyone and their mother on this forum wants unique techs for each faction and that would certainly be nice but lets talk about something that would be a little simpler and easier. If you've noticed each faction in the game gets a starting tech. So far so good. The problem is that the starting techs all take about 6-7 turns to research at the beginning. Therefore to counter a factions starting tech it only costs me 6-7 turns and then we're on exactly even footing. Let me emphasize that. 10 turns into the game the faction differentiation given by starting tech is gone. After that point all factions play EXACTLY the same with respects technology. What happens in the first 10 turns? Can you fight a war or build a meaningful nation in 10 turns. Hardly. In fact I would be surprised if most games involve meeting your first opponent within the first 10 turns. Combine this with the fact that all the starting techs are so cheap and essential and it means that by the time you're actually playing the game any remnant of your starting tech is forgotten.

So. How to fix?

Well honestly I wouldn't mind at all if they merely scrapped all the first tier techs and gave you most of it at the beginning and rolled up the tech costs and a few of the not so necessary monuses into the next level up. That would meaningfully slow down the tech spam at the beginning and give you some meaningful abilities right off the bat.

That said. Let's assume that won't happen. What else can we do?

Two ideas stand out to me.

Idea #1: Give meaningful starting techs that correspond to the factions' backstory.
Examples:
Gilden starts with mining and blacksmithing

Pariden starts with channeling and enchantment

Carrodus starts with trading and economics

Altar starts with the first two adventuring techs

Tarth starts with archery and ??

Krax starts with fortification and leatherworking

At this point I'm a little fuzzy on the factions character and how to transfer them into techs but the principle is there. Then you would really have to think when you play. WHen you see gilden with an iron mine early on you know there's gonna be trouble. You know krax's cities are going to be hard to take early. And you know armoring up is going to be nearly useless against pariden.

Idea #2: Give each faction a bonus on research in one tree and a penalty in another. This is simple and easy a 20% bonus to their favored tech tree and a 10% penalty to the one that least matches with the faction. Something like

Carrodus + 20% Civics -10% Magic

Tarth + 20% Warefare -10% Civics

Parriden +20% Magic -10% Warfare

Altar +20% Magic -10% Civics

This simple mechanic would make each faction far more likely to develop according to their faction ideals and give them some flavor.

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alborrelli

As far as Idea #2.

Tasunke's Version

Carrodus +10% Civics, +10% warfare, -10% magic

Irane +10% warfare

Persephone +10% civics, +10% magic, -10% warfare

Gilden +10% civics

Altar +10% magic

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For the Fallen

Resolyn-> +20% magic, -10% civics

Trogs -> +20% warfare, -10% magic

Urxen -> +10% warfare, +10% magic, -10% civics

Kraxis -> +20% civics, -10% warfare

Quendar -> +10% civics, +10% magic, -10% warfare

(albeit my own version of Quendar would be +10% civics +10% warfare, -10% magic ... but that is a different story)

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Those would work too. The key point is that the current starting tech system adds just a hairs breadth above nothing to game and needs to be reconsidered. My ideas might cause balance issues (especially the first) but at least they would be fun and characterful.

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I agree

Fun and Characterful > Balance when it comes to faction differentiation.

I mean, its good for weapons, armor, and unit progression to be balanced in general ... but Nations should have a lot of REAL functional difference, more for the sake of fun than balance.

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I would rather see the time for some of those techs reduced across the board or rearranged in some way. I don't think it is really possible Or desirable to give racial technologies. Rather, I think the best way to implement this is to create a building hierarchy. For example:

Civilization X needs to build:

Barracks + Temple. They then get access to build their racial specific building the Knight's Hall which allows them to train a special knight unit that has access to weapons and heavy armor and basic life magics (courage, perhaps heal and regen as they level up)

Civilization Y builds a Barracks and a Temple and they get access to the Bear Pit which lets them train Bearman Warriors half bear, half man, with nasty weapons and maul...

Civilization Z builds a temple and a barracks and gets nothing.... but if they build a library and a temple they get access to the Sage Spires which allows them a new magical unit: The Sage

This provides more benefits than just having racial techs or racial tech bonuses. Why?

Let's say I conquer a city of a rival nation. I can then use their city with their race to build THEIR race specific troops. Perhaps instead of every race riding wargs, different races get access to different kinds of mounts. I can mix and match their mounts with my units now. It also leads me to make decisions. Ooo I see some nice resources for a city over here... do I want to build a pioneer with this city to get these kinds of units or goodies... or do I want to build one with this city further away to give me more of these kind....?

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Very nice and easily-implementable solutions! +1!

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It seems you ignored an obvious option. What about making these "Starting" techs more powerful and expensive? They don't have to be first-tier, even. It gives a bit more imbalance, but would be a lot more fun to play. What if I have my advantage for at least 40-50 turns?

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Differentiation needs to be on some fundamental "boots on the ground" level.

We are talking unique spells, unique weapon types, unique equipment, unique unit abilities, unique champion 'learn-able' abilities (see Path of Necromancy)

-> All these things we need.

Boots on the ground is the most important aspect of Faction variability. Do you know what else changes boots on the ground, other than having unique "unit capabilities"?

Unique economies. We already have Faction traits like "Endless Horde" and "Master Smiths" ... we just need to expand more on this.

FACTION TRAITS SHOULD NOT BE FREE TECHS

EVERY civilization should get a different free tech. This should be a separate beast from faction traits .... Maybe a barbaric faction or two could have no free techs, but only if there is a really good reason/justification for it.

The reason? Free techs don't have the same impact as TRUE faction traits.

-> Yes, I like some of Sarudak's ideas about Techability differentiation ... because the CURRENT WAY WE HANDLE FREE TECHS HAS NO IMPACT.

Therefore, I think it'd be best if each nation gets a free tech (or two) along their given specialty ... and for that to just be a SMALL PART of what makes each faction different.

----> Other things include unique economic buildings, unique 1-per-faction buildings, unique food buildings even!

Quendar and Urxen could have more +Food buildings for more slaves/peons.

->Quendar could have slave pens without the growth penalty

->Pariden could have buildings that reduce production AND gold, while increasing research.

->Resolyn could have more ways to sacrifice population for magical (and other types of) power.

-----> Resolyn could be the Death Dealers AND the Vampires

------> Urxen could be the dragon worshippers AND the orcish horde

------> Trogs could be the powerful warrior race (uruk-hais?), with some form of Mycenean form of "competition/Aristea" ... like Agamemnon and Achilles. Not sure how this would be implemented ... exp from damage? More exp from combat? More unit exp?

and maybe Trogs could build both regular trogs and OGRE trogs ... much bigger, sort of like a permanent "growth" spell was cast on such units. Unable to ride mounts, these larger units. Like picking a trait ... you'd pick whether a unit was a regular trog or an OGRE trog.

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Quoting Beric01,

reply 7

How is that not exactly my idea #1?

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Quoting Sarudak,

reply 9

Quoting Beric01, reply 7It seems you ignored an obvious option. What about making these "Starting" techs more powerful and expensive? They don't have to be first-tier, even. It gives a bit more imbalance, but would be a lot more fun to play. What if I have my advantage for at least 40-50 turns?

How is that not exactly my idea #1?

You said "meaningful", and I implied you meant more backstory. I simply think they should be more powerful.

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Making the starting techs more powerful is one way to do it ...

Or just give everyone a starting tech (like all of these games do), and stop pretending starting techs count as a real faction trait.

Now, I do agree that giving certain factions + bonuses and - bonuses to teching SPEED of a given tree would be pretty cool

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Wintersong

Join Date 07/2006

+235

Factions could use (maybe as addition) some bonuses to research certain trees.

Giving factions different techs, I still prefer faction unlocks (in the three trees). Why? Because having someone starting with Leatherworking and someone else with Mining has some impact of making them different yet in the long run, both factions are going to have Leatherworking AND Mining (and both will give the same benefits to both!). On the other hand, if one gets better learther armours than the rest and the other gets to produce more iron from their mines, then we have a difference that no level of research is going to equal.

Not that I don't like the idea of an "accelerated start" with them getting some initial techs based on their background/lore (I use that for my mod too), it's just that it's not enough. Plus I'm against giving advanced techs to factions without them having the prereqs. Too odd for my sense of logic.

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I'd rather see Unique Equipment and Unique Buildings (replacing) and (adding to) the list of possibles (within the context of current techs).

I mean faction unique techs are fine and all, but I think making the same techs do "different things" for each faction might be better.

---> not that Faction specific techs aren't valid ... and in some cases might be required (due to lore), I just don't think its necessary.

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I want to make it clear that my idea is not for faction specific techs.

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Dr Franknfurter

Join Date 08/2005

+22

I had assumed that the game would eventually aim to have faction specific techs (ala Gal civ 2 eventually progressing to--> twilight of the arnor)

Still, I'd like each faction to gain some tech differences in the interim while it's still broken.

I'd suggest the following:

Each tech choice gives 1 tech but also involves a small cost reduction in the following 1 or 2 linked techs. Also a cumilative +5% civic/warfare/magic research production bonus. Atm I dislike spending anything on the techs because firstly the benefit is tiny, secondly they compete with other choices that have a longterm impact... it would make more sense if they were seperated from traits and such (like the 1 history/backstory choice) If each race had a default of 2 tech picks, additional picks could be traded with a limited number of traits that already exist although currently just add or remove +10% research, instead they would add/remove 1 tech pick. In that way you couldn't be a stupid race with lots of technology or a dumb race with all your points invested in tech - which you can do now and... this is MADNESS!

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How about unique faction spells spread out throughout the tech trees. There can be some "early" ones then some "middle" ones and some final ones at the end. 3 per tech tree (ie 9 faction unique, even if barely) techs total.

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Not every Faction needs unique spells, or unique weapons, or unique equipment ....

But I think each faction needs at least 2 out of 3.

Wraiths -> Leech Life (mass) and Vampire Swords -> And possibly a Path of Necromancy for Mage Champions

Tarth -> Late Game Leather ++ and Unique Bows -> and possibly additional traits via 'tattoo' magic

Trogs -> Unique Heavy armor and unique ... Axe? Hammer?

Gilden -> Unique money building and Unique Shield

Altar -> Less Champion experience penalty.

Quendar -> No growth penalty for slave pens. Gold bonus for slave pens. A magical stave that deals death or poison damage? (some special magic staff of some kind)

Pariden -> Special staff that adds initiative and dodge. Some special spell I haven't thought of yet.

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FE has a wonderful engine, nice graphic styles and a good tactical base layer. After playing the beta 2 a lot it feels that the balance and the diversity is still in its childrens shoes. I read on the internet that FE is gonna be out end march but i feel that is too early. Now in this stage of the beta Stardock has a lot to do making each faction different and making the gameplay deeper with a more realistic weapon handling. Faction dfference and weapon handling are going hand in hand. Considering about these two things will make this game a spiritual follower of MOM.

All your proposals go in the right way but i have got the feeling that stardocks game designers (at this point) were thinking too much about the technical aspects of the game. Now they they have to paint all things out. FE is a lot inspirated from CIV4. Why not handle the faction diversity like in Civ4? And after that the guy from the FFH2 Mod has to look at the factions he created in his mod and take the diversity over to FE. Then we will get a excellent 4X fantasy game...

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I wonder if there is not enough in the budget for Faction diversity ...

To save money, why not have Uniques look the same as stock items and spells? You only know its a unique because of the faction using it.

Or, if its a spell, it will display a different name.

-> In this way, it would only need XML changes I think.

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I know that I am always talking about FFH2 but this is a great mod. Why not creating some Master Quests for each factions like in FFH2? This will also do a lot to the faction diversity.

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I love FFH2 but FFH2 didn't have any master quests ... are you thinking of a modmod?

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Quoting Tasunke,

reply 1

As far as Idea #2.

Tasunke's Version

Carrodus +10% Civics, +10% warfare, -10% magic

Irane +10% warfare

Persephone +10% civics, +10% magic, -10% warfare

Gilden +10% civics

Altar +10% magic

quite like it even if id go even further, really need each civ to be much more different from each other

but ok, i really hope there will be traits and someting else too

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I don't think of the starting tech's as being the advantage a faction has, but rather as giving them a leg up in a particular area.

For example, if I want to rush mining then I'm going to want restoration as my starting tech. Sure you can have restoration within six or seven turns of the start but I am still going to beat you to mining by six or seven turns...

I've been experimenting with epic speed and here your tech choices count much more. At the start base level tech's are about 42 turns (with Decalon). Ok, that really translates into about 25-30 turns before you finish your tech (assuming it is one of the base ones and you don't find hefty loremasters...). They matter much more here.

For a custom race, though, I never take tech's as these are a wasted opportunity for long games. If I was a rusher I would always be taking two tech's...

Unlike just about everyone on the forums I find the early game too quick. I really don't want to feel like I am halfway through the game on season 1 - a reason I have gone to epic speed. Please don't take out the tier one tech's.

My suggestion, unpopular as it is bound to be, is to slow tech progress down: this will make tech advantage count for something more. A faction starting with standing army will then have longer to capitalise on its early lead in this area.

Faction specific tech bonuses could be tied to the existing tech tree (I'm guessing that this way there is some chance that they might get implemented). Even one building, one weapon and one spell would go a long way to differentiating factions along racial lines.

I would suggest that the 'uniques' be placed in different places. Rather than every faction getting a unique spell with chanelling, they each get a unique spell with a strategically predetermined (by the Stardockian gods) tech. This would encourage factions to follow different paths through the (one existing) tech tree.

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Quoting feelotraveller,

reply 23

For a custom race, though, I never take tech's as these are a wasted opportunity for long games. If I was a rusher I would always be taking two tech's...

This sounds bout right ... although honestly the zombie strategy is better for rushing than the two-tech picks imho.

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I would combine them.

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