Have them eat babies for breakfast, puppies for lunch and kittens for dinner.

I don't want some babt-eaters, just want some bad guys using some cool and uniques features

This +1.

Maybe one or two of the Empires could be "evil," but only if one or two of the Kingdoms are also evil. There have plenty of evil kings and queens through history and fiction. And the Romans could of been viewed as both Empires and Kingdoms throughout their history. The British Empire was both good and bad, depending on whether you were inside or not. Ditto for the USA.

Lets try and stay away from the black and white good v evil thing. it's been done, well, in lots of other places. One of the neat ideas in Elemental is having the Empires and Kingdoms divided along lines other than good and evil. It allows for more interesting interactions.

yes, I think that would be a lot more interesting than "good white kingdoms" versus "evil black empires"

Keep Empire/Kingdom as a difference in philosophy, and then allow for differences within them. There's plenty of scope for an evil kingdom. Then you could have situations where the other kingdoms get dragged into the war and have to decide between siding with what they know (ally with the fellow kingdom) or stand up for what they think is right (ally with the Empires).

Actually, concepts such as "good" and "evil" shouldn't be bolted onto the difference factions Instead, their actions in each game should determine whether they are good or evil. Implement

slavery = evil points.

Go to war to stop a weak neighbouring empire being invade by a kingdom (and vice versa) = good points

etc

Ideally, in each and every game, all races/civs could end up good/neutral/evil through their game play choices (Rather than ticking a box to say you want to go evil). As otherwise, what's to stop the human player ticking the "good" box, and then invading neighbouring weaker AIs? ... get some actual role playing into the game

Also, there could be two difference good/evil scales, one for the kingdoms and one for the empires. So a civ might end up being viewed as "good" by the empires, but only "neutral" by the kingdoms, etc. Invading a weaker rival would be viewed as as  "good" act by the Empires, as they believe in surival of the fittest, whereas the kingdoms would view it as a evi act.

And of course, this would allow for a Kindom to be viewed as evil by other kingoms, while being viewed as good by the empires.

Unfortunately though, at the moment Empires don't seem to have much of a distinct identity beyond being evil. Well, there is their propensity for building grandiose monuments, but that's not much to work with. Evil is kind of their shtick. If you uncouple being evil from being an empire, then empires will need to have a whole new identity created for them.

It always depends on how it presented.

Did you read "The black compagny" ? It's about a mercernary band and you can't help but liking them even if they're far from being good-doers. And if you look at FFH2, they're a lotta evil civs far from the babies eaters.

Again, you just have to think a little further than the usual clichés. You can be evil AND kickass/classy.

Perhaps a good approach would be to mirror the darker aspects across the Empire / Kingdom divide. So you have a Kingdom which is all about being strong enough to fight for survival and defend your land, mirrored in an Empire which is about brute strength and might makes right.

Though I dislike the simplistic black\white approach they usually use, so it might be better to go for a grey scale. So while Tarth might epitomise the principles of a strong defence for the kingdoms, it also means a strict regimental society and automatic conscription - think Spartan society - where anyone not 'doing their bit' is treated as suspect. The Empire on the other hand might have a brutal regime built on personal strength, but it also means it's citizens are far better protected.

Well. Flavor they've put some work in allready... kingdoms turn the terrain around them green and lush, empires turn it into a twisted wasteland.

The story based difference is, the fallen were the followers of the titans.. not just by choice; the titans created them. The titans wanted to take the world's magic for their own.

That's not exactly a nice thing, but that doesn't make the fallen, in and of themselves, a bad people. However... death worshipping, brutal half-demons and such is what they are so 'bad' fits, and some technologies do emphasise this facet.

I think I'd take the flavor thing a bit further, namely with music differences and ambient sound (That might be done allready, but in that case, not thoroughly enough because I haven't noticed it.).

Now, the population structure leads to shantytowns.... that fits well with not caring much for general populace, but not so well with extolling skilled individuals. As such, a research line that lead to estates or similar - productive sites in one way or another, or even better, increasing the abilities of champions, should fit.

I'd love a faction - specific research line, like in galciv II. Wraiths would have magic-enhancing death rituals, Yithril could have combat arenas, and so on.

But slavery (in some forms), random torture and such, that seems more the domain of a caricature of evil; eebil. Although a colosseum style arena for prestige would work; it could increase prestige and income normally, and if you throw a bit of population into it, its bonuses would be doubled for 25-50 turns...

What is evil... there are many definitions, few of which everyone agrees on.

In that context, I meant 'doing extreme hard for no good reason'. This was aimed mostly at the torture facilities suggestion; torturing people for entertainment is neither good entertainment nor very .. nice. Also, how slavery is often depicted in film. You don't usually round up every man, woman and child in a productive community and put them to work in a salt mine instead (or turn them into the body servants of some vain ruler). In the first case, you destroy a profitable community - most often one of your own than an enemy one - and in the latter case, you take your enemies, give them access to your body, and knives. VERY clever.

Slavery in the Roman emprie were a lot more faceted and nuanced; despite making extensive use of slaves. VERY extensive. And it's a good model for any empire. But there, slavery were traditionally not abhorrent - you could sell yourself into slavery (usually if you had crushing debt), you would be expected to be treated well and freed after a period of time. The glut of prisoners of war devalued slaves a lot, and they were often used for harder purposes. (Hard labor, or even arena fights).

Over to raiding - why raid a place when conquering it will most likely be just as difficult? Other than that, go for it - possily, empire could start with the ability to raze settlements (and send its population as slaves to your own cities, kind of like Rome: Total War), but not to capture them. *shrug*

Are we gonna be able to change things like technologies and characteristics of each allegiance via mods?

If i'm not wrong, Brad said that with the tools we could make even better games than his so i'm positive we'll be able to

They will but i'd rather see Brad and the team finishing the game and delivering the awesome game we all wait for