No. Please explain.

Do you think the rapist wants the child to be born or in any way benefits from the existence of his biological child?

It seems logical to me that the rapist would want the child to be aborted.

You tell me that one cannot think logically with criminals and then you proceed to think logically about it and focus on the criminal and what he might want or not want.

I pretty much ignored the criminal in my reasoning and focused on the child.

The point is that the child is innocent. The decision shouldn't have anything to do with the rapist but only with the child and the mother. I already said that I agree that an abortion would be fully justified. But I'd still prefer the child to live.

Focusing logically on the rapist and figuring out what his opinion is contradicts not only your claim that one cannot think logically with criminals but it also ignored the subject, namely whether or not the child should live. And it should.

Remove the rapist from the equation and think of another situation where the killing of one might be justified. For example think of a situation where someone accidentally kills another trying to save himself. Would you not agree that while the killing would be justified (in the sense that it shouldn't be punished) buit that it would be better if it hadn't happened?

The mother could (and probably should) give the child up for adoption. There are so many couples who want a child and can't get one.

The rapist won't get the imortality, only the real father, the one who raises the child and fills his or her brain with information will. It is a fallacy to assume that what we are is defined by our genes. It isn't. And it is only genes that the child will get from his biological father.

What I am is not my genes but my worldview. I'd rather have my worldview spread than my genes. Having children should be for the benefit of the children, not for the benefit of some mythical idea of imortality by spreading your genes.

1) The cereals bowl you just ate this morning was a result of someone else caring for you. If you stop feeding you'll get sick and as a result;

2) But lucky you, Doctors (and plenty more, btw) have such concerns for anyone.

All hail the compassionate cereal bowl makers!

Zyxp,

I fear you're wasting your breath.  I believe this may be a result of the obvious cultural differences between Canada and the US (some cited quite well by Frogboy earlier).

In the US (in general) it seems to be all about the individual.  What the individual can accomplish and what wealth/prosperity he/she can amass.  In Canada (also in general) we tend to work toward the collective good.  I can see how that would make for vastly differing points of view.

the Monk

It was a British economist who figured out that work done for oneself ultimately benefits the collective good.

I have read of experiments that showed that if players compete rather than co-operate (i.e. work for the collective good) they will ultimately get more points.

And in fact, in our world, the more competitive a society is, economically, the better off even the poorest member of it becomes.

@zyxpsilon, @the_Monk:

What monk said.

I, too, originally assumed that americans share the same values our "socialist" societies do, but they seem to differ substantialy in some aspects. Generally speaking, of course.

 Now, we people here are still relatively civil to each other, despite our obvious differences. Ok, we doubt each others sanity at times, but that's fine. There's even screaming going on when we basically agree with each other but squabble over nuances.

If we all sit back a bit and think how it must be like when people with fundamentally different values clash, one can imagine that those clashes won't be solved without fatalities. And america is a melting pot of different cultures, beliefs, values. I sometimes think that's the reason that americans demonstrate such a disturbing patriotism - a common bond to prevent a shattered union.

As foreign observers we have a different perspective of the things that happen in america. And the health reform opposition clearly looks like the exploiters of the current system are doing everything they can to prevent something we take for granted.

As a Canadian and as someone who was married to an emergency physician for 10 years here are my thoughts on health care in the U.S. vs health care in Canada:

-In Canada physicians are well paid but do not earn the exhorbitant salaries of their US counterparts. I believe this helps to keep the profession fairly free of those whose goal is to become a "rich doctor". Most Canadian doctors truly care about advancing medicine and helping their patients. Most are normal, humble people who often do not even use the "Dr." title outside of the medical arena. While they financially enjoy a lifestyle better than most, health care costs are not mired by inflated salaries paid to inflated egos. Until US doctors are prepared to accept more realistic salaries, universal health care will never be a possibility in the US.

-The "sue happy" mentality of the US population (touched on previously I believe). Doctors in the US often pay hundreds of thousands of $$ ANNUALLY for medical insurance (especially specialties like obstetrics). Your baby is born with an extra finger? Sue the doctor! In Canada, insurance is included in the annual fee paid to the medical association of the province in which you are employed. Although it is not unheard of to sue a doctor or hospital in Canada, you must show just cause for your case to be allowed to proceed in the courts. In the US, you can bring any lawsuit you like. I remember reading an article several years ago in a Canadian medical journal that recounted a trial in the US. I don't remember the details but the gist was that a baby had been born with some medical issues and the parents weren't happy.  They sued the doctors because "they should have known".  The independent medical experts that testified showed without a doubt that no one could have known, the doctors did everything "right" and that it was just one of those unfortunate things that happen in life. But the lawyers played on the emotions of the jury, (poor kid, medical issues for life, etc.) and the jury, ignoring the overwhelming evidence supporting the defense, awarded a settlement of millions of $$. I don't think I have to spell out how allowing frivolous lawsuits and inflated settlements damages the integrity of health care.

In my opinion it boils down to money and attitude. In Canada, we pay a LOT of taxes.  We grumble about it but we do it because we know that because of those taxes we recieve top notch medical care, a police force we trust (don't even try to debate me on the gun issue in the US...you will lose...lol), all the services we need to live a good life, financial aid when we are old, welfare for those down on their luck, excellent schools for our children, subsidized universities/colleges so that post secondary education is an option for anyone.

In terms of attitude, not everyone uses or needs the services available. For example, even if you have no children, you pay hefty school taxes. You may have a chronic illness that requires frequent doctor visits or you may get a check-up once a year and be fine.  Again, people sometimes grumble about paying for services they may not need or use, but Canadians understand that it is best for all of us to have a population that is healthy, educated, and secure in the knowledge that our government cares about our well being. Perhaps these are the reasons why Canadians seem/are happier, more polite, less sue-happy, less racist, less violent and all round more respectful to each other than Americans.

Until the American social consciousness changes, until the American people are prepared to act in the best interests of the populous and not just themselves, I don't think Universal health care will ever come to fruition in the US. 

the Monk's Wife

Wow.

@the_Monk

Good, and please stay where you are. There's a reason why they put loons on your currency. Also, "In Canada physicians are well paid but do not earn the exhorbitant salaries of their US counterparts," is priceless. Those miserly American doctors!

I think the word you"re looking for Melchiz is "greedy" American doctors....not "miserly"....completely different meaning....I guess the fact that we pay our doctors less but we pay our teachers more shows.....lol...."priceless".

And I am the Monk's wife...not the Monk...although I'm pretty sure he agrees with me.  When he gets home I'll ask....lol.

I don't think most people here are arguing for or against HR 3200. They are arguing about the concept of tax payer funded universal health care.

The issue, in my view, is just a lot more complex in the US than in other western countries for reasons discussed in this thread.

(this forum software is pure shit when dealing with several nested quotes.)

Quoting Melchiz

Quoting Aroddo, reply 340

As foreign observers we have a different perspective of the things that happen in america. And the health reform opposition clearly looks like the exploiters of the current system are doing everything they can to prevent something we take for granted.

Well, if you admit that your perspective is clouded, how can you claim to see this so-called opposition "cleary?"

Well, first of all I didn't admit that my/our perspective is clouded nor did I intend to sound that way. We, of course, think that we see the issue more clearly. There's a german saying (not sure how the english counterpart goes): "You don't see the forest because the trees are in the way."

Your struggle simply looks different from the outside and we see implications you don't. This is by no means meant to sound arrogant - it's a simple fact. I, for example, had to have pointed out to me that our school system is - even though quite efficient - basically discriminating. And before getting told that (by an american, btw.) I never wasted a though on that matter.

Quoting Melchiz

I find it amusing foreigners speak as if American healthcare is somehow lacking. ...
Our system is not perfect, but considering the talent of our physicians, our wealth of technology, and diversity of care options, I see no reason for foreigners to pity us. I would expect the opposite, really. Perhaps there is some lingering envy for American healthcare, particularly in how we often attract talented physicians from other nations.

That statement sounds to foreigners like a typical display of american arrogance - and I'm not sure anymore if you even meant it like that.

No one doubts that your medical knowhow is top notch - but your system is too focused on profit making to be considered more than average as a system. We simply don't think that private "death panels" should have the power to condemn anyone to death by denying coverage.

I got the impression that we can agree to that, at least. And I concede that you don't need a public option to improve your system. But you definetly need better laws and regulations.

That is not irony. No country likes to be approached with an "if you're not with us, you're against us", "america first" attitude. Your last president managed single-handedly to get billions of people world wide to hate him, and by extension america.

Quoting Melchiz

Well, in order to understand the appropriate way to manage American healthcare, one must understand America. I suppose that this complexity explains the arguments made by many foreign posters.

Possibly. In exchange you should consider how strange some of the american comments sound. Especially when making statements about our health care systems that simply are not true, even if cable TV says so.