Don't need Frogboy for that. Most of them are open about where they are posting from. Many, if not exactly "most", of the supporters on the forum will not be affected by it in any way. Most of those opposed will be affected by it eventually.

Anyone willing to read for a while should find this article interesting. Keep in mind the writer is a self-proclaimed Democrat, but some of the ideas expressed should have other party members ready to disown him. Only at the end when he gets to the things all Americans should be required to do does he return to what a Democrat would find acceptable.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care

To be fair, most of them hated us already. Bush just reminded them why.

Zyxp -

qnpoquywghbnqrtqouihvpqo;wenit;qoihvaalkndf;aohyqebrqiygtbsbnw4rtmqeroj

Hah!  Maybe you aren't, I missed that whole PC craze.  Completely...

This would be the same Cuba where fever reducers aren't widely available, yes?

For what I truly wish could be the last time, life expectancy is a product of lifestyle first, health care second.  Cuba's poverty is even a plus.  They aren't actually starving, but they can't afford to eat too much.  When you slow down your metabolism, you age slower to go with it.  They walk to work because they can't afford transportation, plant their own gardens because they can't afford to shop like we do, and generally aren't fat, yet again because they can't afford to eat McDonalds every day and sit on their ass all evening.  Cuba's health care sucks donkey balls, aside from a couple high end clinics in the rich parts of the island.  Those would be the places tourists go to.  Their other facilities make the shit hole hospitals we have in rural areas look like a godsend.

First, you're wrong.  Medicare is 80/20.  People that die of cancer generally don't die of cancer after 65.  When you died at 25 from leukemia, you weren't covered by medicare.  You did however rack up x millions of dollars in hospital bills before you went.  More money than you would likely have made in your entire life had you lived to ripe old age.  Two thirds in the last six months, yes, but everyone doesn't live to be 75, and medicare doesn't pay it all.

Second, you're assuming that it's a good idea government pays for all those costs.  Medicare is what created the rapidly increasing cost, the time line is quite obvious.  Each expansion, including the one Bush made, has increased the rate at which new treatments are created, due to the increase in viability through government funding.  There would be no aids coctail without medicaid for instance.  No one with aids, aside from Magic Johnson, could afford the treatment.  It's nice that my grandfather got to beat lymphoma twice, it's not very fair though.  More money was spent on him than he and all his children combined have made their entire lives.  In return, he got 16 years he wouldn't have ten years earlier.  Medicare has created the massively expensive, but significantly better medical treatment.  It is the problem.

If we can't afford the amount we're spending, the solution is that we need to die sooner.  You do that by getting rid of medicare and medicaid, not by expanding the system to include everyone.

Thank you for this. I really didn't need any evidence of your sour attitude before, but this speaks more clearly of your character than my words would ever be able to accomplish.

Something of interest, the Founding Fathers used greed to their advantage. That is why it is a capitalist society.

Don't misunderstand me, they were Idealist as well. They believed that all mankind have good in them, but they understood that you will not get people to work their best just for the greater good.

To work hard and to put your best in the work for the greater good is a wonderfull idea and works brilliantly on paper, but unfortunatly it requires a great deal of moral and mental strength to do that day after day; and that strength cannot be found in great abundence in any country in the world at this time. 

The Founders reliezed this and also reliezed that if you offer a reward for the work, they are more willing to do the work. They also knew that if you give more incentives to work harder people would be more willing to do it. That is why capitalism works so well, it is a group of people who are working together for their own personal gain and striving to do better because they know that they will recieve better rewards. Those that work also relieze that if they don't do a good job while someone else is doing a better job for the same price, they will be dropped for the better worker. Same goes for companies and products, if there is something or someone else who is doing a better job for a similar price those who are paying for it will go there. It is all similar to how the laws of supply and demand work.

In contrast, if the people are being paid the same price whether they are doing a lousy job or a brilliant job, they tend to become discourage and just do an okay job because no matter what  they are being paid the same. An example of this is communist Russia (no I am not prejudice, it is just easier to see with them as an example), the products that came out of the factories were crap because it didn't matter how good it was they were still paid the same no matter what, as long as they worked.

How this applies to doctors is that they put in A LOT of effort and money to become a doctor, hence why here in America they are paid more. If they weren't paid more far less people would be willing to put in the effort to become a doctor. There would still be those who wanted to help people, but the majority of people who could be great doctors wouldn't be willing.

As an example of people willing to do things for a reward let me make an example: Who here would be willing to take a monkey to prom, and enjoy it? No one?

What if I offered to pay you 100,000 dollars? How many would be willing?

what about 10,000? Still takers?

1,000? I still see a few hands

100? I think i still see several hands in back

What about 5 dollars?

10 cents?

If you were still willing to do it at 10 cents I appluade your, ahem, extreme individuallity.

Edit: The only two motivators in life; Fear of loss, or Hope for gain.

Avix605....like i said, i was married to an emergency physician for 10 years...I know how hard they work in Med school and the stresses they deal with in their work. I am not suggesting a communist situation where everyone is paid the same, but i am also suggesting that salaries for physicians in the US (and for that matter pro athletes, movie stars, etc.) are inflated. Nobody needs millions of dollars every year to live a good life. And by the way, doctors in Canada still get paid handsomely and are nowhere near being martyrs. 

As for the ideals of the Founding Fathers"....if it were true that hard work, effort, level of responsibility, etc. in a job reflects the remuneration of said job in the US, then nurses, teachers, law enforcement, etc. would be paid waaaay more than they are.

The Monk's Wife

Thus is true. But there is a difference between making a living off helping others get well, and getting rich off the suffering of others..

I mean were not talking luxuries here, were talking about basic fundamental needs here. The costs for vital medical attention should be affordable for all. Sure Charge up the wazoo for breast augmentation, or other non vital elective surgeries. Sad part is Ive seen Bill boards pop up advertising competitive rates for breast implants, but yet dude dieing in ICU is cut no such break. Again the have's cutting deals for the haves, while the rest get the shaft..

BTW I have ample Health coverage and have for many years, but it bothers me to see folks who do work hard to support their families not be able to cover insurance premiums. Not to mention getting stuck with large parts of the bill becuase the insurance CO would rather see you Die than pay out.. Dont get me started on them either...

When My mom was sick with cancer I had to step in because her insurance didnt cover everything, so I covered the expenses the insurance didnt cover over what she couldnt afford, prescriptions etc. Sure I paid the $500 weekly for 7 pills trying to save her life, But holy shit did they really cost $400 to make, even $300? $200? $5.00???  not to mention the $10 ibuprophin pill I could have bought 500 of at walmart for the same price. I mean it looks like a 500% or so mark up on every thing, no wonder folks cant afford health care, and dont trust the health care system.

I mean doctors used to take a bushel of apples or what ever the patient could afford... but now with huge medical centers and Boards of directors running the show, you almost have to offer up a mortgage on the family home to get seen.. its gotten way out of hand.. Sadly the people are speaking out.... and if the Medical profession as a whole wont listen, the people will turn to who ever will. IMO If the health care industry wants to avoid Government regulation and keep the ball in their court.. They need to start making some revisions and fast. Other wise for better or worse, the Government will get drug in to the picture.

The Political aspect is moot to me as If they are involved they will screw it all up no mater what party is running the show, And I trust either side about as far as I can toss a Bus. Keeping Political promises = smoke and mirrors to cast an illusion of actuality.

Monk's Wife

I never said Canadian doctors were martyrs, nor did I say you were suggesting communism. I mearly used it as one of my examples.

There is another factor that does come into play; how much are the employers willing to pay. The wage of a worker is a compromise between what a person is willing to work for, and how much do they think they are worth. Now, I do not remember off the top of my head about nurses, but I do know that all public school teachers, law enforcement officers, military personel, etc. are government employee's. The president, congress, and the majority of the bureaucracy try to take the government income (taxes) and fund the Important items, and their pet projects, find ways to take it home as bonuses or give it in gifts to their supporters, etc. and the lower level "less important people" (ie the teachers, law enforcement, etc.) get the short end of the stick.

Now more on Communist Russia, when I was a little child my family had the Great Honor of hosting two russian choir members in our home. They were part of the only russian choir that had been allowed to come to America before the Iron Curtain fell. Do you know what happened the minute they stepped into a common supermarket? My mother remembers clearly, The Were Absolutly SHOCKED. Shocked that the shelves were lined with food. Shocked that there was all kinds of food. Shocked that you could recieve help at anytime in the store.

Do you know what communism and socialism try and impersonate. Something religious called the United Order. It is where everything is pooled together and people receive only according to their needs. It will only work though when two conditions are met. When the people are of one heart and one mind and God himself is the ruler. The Founding Fathers wanted this perfect society more than any of us can ever understand. They believed in God with all their hearts. But they knew how greedy people are. When they sat down to create the Constitution of the United States they strove to create the best government they could that would insure the freedoms of the people. Don't deny that you too see the truth in the phrase it takes two thieves to make an honest deal.

The Founding Fathers created this Great Experiment. The United States. Proof that the people can in some way rule themselves and that they did not need someone else to make all the decisions for them. All free countries owe their freedoms to this experiment. For well over two hundred years it has stood, and it sickens me how over the years people have chipped away at it, striving to make it into what it was never ment to be. That is what this bill is. An attack on the very founding principals of this nation. If the government gets any larger or anymore control over the people that is one more chip taken from the very foundation of this Free nation.

And yet, Hitler did it, eventually, to those that opposed him and to those he saw as inferior. And in much the same way, Obama and this adminstration are taking those very steps right now.

Obama is appointing so many 'Czars' that answer to no one but himself. It seems as though he is trying to circumvent 2 branches of the Government to give sole control to the Executive branch, with himself as the head of everything.

And in case you haven't noticed, our 'rights' are flying out the window like birds fleeing a fire. This administration (and the previous as well) cares nothing for 'Constitutional Rights' (or responsibilities) anymore.

Heck, our President won't even release his original long-form birth certificate or other records - and is paying BIG $$$ to keep it that way. Why?

This country is going to hell-in-a-hand-basket. And all because so many want what they don't earn themselves at the cost of those that do.

I just think that everyone should be able to have the same opportunity your grandfather had. To be denied that would be a denial to life. Sixteen years is a long period of time. One of his grandchildren probably moved through his or her adolescance and into the real world, something he would not have had the joys of if he couldn't get the care that he needed.

It's really weird debating with someone where I'm the one saying, "your grandfather deserved what the government gave him" and you disagree.

ahh but what if your grand father was also Bill Gates grandfather but had died due to lack of health care before producing Bills father, thus bill never being born. Hence causing a greater loss to society than the care's initial cost. Would the savings have been worth it then?