Gmail Makes Other Netmail Companies Cry...

Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1822

'Erosion of privacy' ....there you go....for the times when 'invasion' appears NQR..... Spell checker

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You can not invade my house if I open the door and invite you in.

I hereby crown Zoomba the Analogy Emperor!

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An erosion occurs when laws and court rulings start to lessen your privacy and rights. By voluntarily accepting the terms of a contract you are giving them up on very specific terms on a case-by-case basis. My agreeing to GMails terms does not affect my other email accounts I hold with other providers. My agreeing to GMails terms is no worse than agreeing to the terms of my bank.

I know the risks of having information placed online. Be it placed on a weblog, sent in an email or provided in signing up for some service I know it's now "out there" and I have little control over it. By placing myself online, I am making myself a quasi-public figure, and as such expectations have to change a bit. I protect myself by limiting what information I broadcast over the wire.

You selectively give up your rights on a daily basis every time you buy something, use a piece of software, drive a car, use a credit card etc... GMail is no worse than anything else in the average person's life. They just don't understand it and therefore they are afraid of it.

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Zoomba - I am not afraid of Gmail...please - was that necessary?

I was making a statement on what I see as an invasion of privacy that permeates our entire society as a whole, and the reason I don't use Gmail myself: Gmail just happened to be the "product" that was being discussed here.

Goodness! please use whatever you choose - I have already said that if you wanted to then fine. Not that what I say or think is really going to get you to change your mind or anyone else's for that matter

My feeling remains that people are much too complacent about what is perceived as "erosions", "invasions", or other ways that privacy is affected whether we are aware of it or not - no matter how nice and pleasant it appears on the surface: history has shown us many examples of things that have gone on for ages that in the end were not at all okay or correct.

I think you are missing the bigger picture I am looking at, and I was perhaps incorrect in stating my views here. So I apologize to greywar if I have in any way detracted from this thread and it's contents.

Peace.

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kona0197

Join Date 02/2003

+84

There are pop ups and spam on Gmail? Where? I personally have *never* gotten spam there. Not even one. This is no different than television ads. Free service in exchange for free info. In TV's case it is your viewing habits. Here it is email and click throughs. Same same.

Next time you check your email look at the right hand side of the screen while in your inbox on viewing your mail. See the ads? Google SCANNED your emails and then put those ads up there. Thats why Jafo dosen't like Google. They read every email you get.

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Google scanning my emails is no different to my servers spam checking software scanning my emails. An automated process is searching the emails for specific keywords. In googles case it targets adverts to them. In the spam checkers case it uses a system to determine if it's spam.

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Google scanning my emails is no different to my servers spam checking software scanning my emails

I have a choice to opt out on my ISP's spam scanning software and use my own software on my pc. I do not believe gmail gives you a choice to opt out of their advertising vehicle.

I have no reason to trust or not to trust Google, but I would err on the side of caution. I think they should offer a "Pay for the space you use" mail storage system that doesn't scan your mail as an option...in good faith.

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I know. What the hell am I going to do with over 2000 mb??

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A couple points.

1. I've seen words used like "sent information" and "read e-mails" regarding GMail's collection of info. That just shows a lack of knowledge. E-mail parsing is as simple as searching for words to improve the likelihood of ad relevance. That doesn't involve "reading" (which implies comprehension) or sending information to other companies. It's about as invasive as the function that checks the size of the e-mail.

2. I like Google. They're the good guys; I don't think you give them enough credit. They do a good job at everything they do. I jumped at getting a GMail account because i knew it would be the sweetest, most function-rich free service availible. They haven't disappointed me yet.

3. All good lists of reasons come in threes.

Dan

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1822

E-mail parsing is as simple as searching for words to improve the likelihood of ad relevance. That doesn't involve "reading" (which implies comprehension) or sending information to other companies.

Information is gathered.....maybe just a 'keyword'.

It is forwarded to an Advertising company to indicate YOU as a potential customer for a product.

That is an intelligent response to the 'information gathered'.

Ergo it is comprehension.

If information is NOT sent to 'other companies' how is it you are targetted by those other companies?

So what if a person from gmail does not physically walk over to the advertiser brandishing your name and address [though they 'could']...the result is identical.

If you argue it is truly anonymous then it is like all other SPAM.

If you consent to receiving SPAM then good for you.

Gmail are not 'good guys' just because they tell you they are going to intrude on your communication. You are paying for what you get.

They [gmail] sucker everyone into fevered distribution of 'invites' [good old pyramid selling] so they can have a captive audience for their advertiser targetting...and obviously the faster the take up the better for them.

If they [gmail] sat in a corner and waited for people to notice the facility the take up would be too slow to reap benefits for the Advertisers...so flooding through blind hysteria was/is the only option.

Gee...I MUST have a gmail account...all my friends have one.

The problem is it's really relatively youth-oriented...as perhaps the older [wiser?] value their diminishing rights/privacy more as they've seen it/them eroded for far longer.

Imagine....

You telephone your Aunt Maud...ask how her arthritis is going.....

Next day the phone rings...."Hi...it's Invasive Pharmaceuticals here....we have a great deal on Exit-Arthritis....19.95 if you have your credit card handy".

You guys may think nothing of it.....

I'll be buggered if I'm going to unwittingly be an Advertiser's dummy....

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1822

Here's an example of privacy invasion [an equivalent].

When you apply for, and receive a building permit from the local council that fact is on public record.

The data is collected and forwarded to advertisers who then can spam you with 'buy our timber/sinks/taps/paint/et al'.

You cannot 'opt out'.

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kona0197

Join Date 02/2003

+84

Jafo it seems Barney is affecting this thread!

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If they are looking at your mail (scan, parse, tiptoe, whatever) what do they with the files people upload for storage?

Just curious.

For the paranoid (or borderline) Link

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you check your email look at the right hand side of the screen

exactly, that type of ad is not a pop-up (one that spawns some damn window that I am obligated to close out of). I don't even notice the damn things excepting the ones which make me laugh.

You cannot 'opt out'.

Umm yes, you can. You don't use their service. It is that simple.

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a pop-up

Its just text 'related to the message.' Some times that text is hysterical. We're talking about getting a new table, and then is shows up saying 'get free table cleaner' Not on the subject, dudes.....

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Some times that text is hysterical.

I have indeed gotten some belly laughs from them.

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1822

You cannot 'opt out'

greywar ....reread my post. If you want a building permit...you cannot opt out of receiving unsolicited advertising as a consequence.

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The wonders of gmail advertising explained from a slightly less paranod/"The sky is falling" perspective:

1. Google accepts advertisers on their Ad service
2. Google creates a list of keywords that applies to that particular ad, using whatever really smart formulas they have for this stuff
3. Google parses any content passing between its servers and the users screen using automated tools
4. Your web search results/displayed email is accompanied by ads determined relevant based on keyword filtering.

There is no gathering of information from what is in your email. There is no passing along your email or information to a third party. No human being in fact is involved in the process. At best, they collect statistics on how many times keywords are used, and then how often a keyword generates an ad that recieves a click-through. This information is likely compiled into some mass report that uses averages and such and NO identifying data.

All internal to Google, no human being involved (hence no true comprehension...) just a bunch of formulas churning over raw text that passes through them and spitting out ads based on defined keywords.

You think your purchasing data isn't collected and sold by your credit card company? Or that your phone use trends aren't analyzed by your phone company to offer you a different service? Are you worried about Google tracking your search habits? You can develop a pretty cool profile on a person just based on what they search for online.

Your phone call analogy doesn't apply here. One method is invasive, the other is not. The phone example depends on someone listening and analyzing the contents of your conversation, and then later intruding on you to waste your time with their offer. Google places (sometimes) relevant ads to the side of the screen that are easy to ignore (I honestly don't even notice them anymore). The proper comparison with the phone example would be to say that as soon as you said "arthritis", a little advertisement would come across the display on your phone, not in any way intruding on your conversation.

GMail is probably the least of the offenders we deal with every day when it comes to privacy. You have far more to worry about from your credit card company, your grocery store, your bank, or any other institution you obtain services from. I know you want to think there is some deep dark conspiracy in the Google offices where they are secretly planning to steal your first born child, but you have nothing to back up the idea aside from some pretty crazy claims.

I guess it's easy to target Google while ignoring all the other "invasions of privacy" you allow in your day to day life because Google is something you can completely and safely opt out of. It's easy to rail against something that has no actual impact on your life... harder to when it has become an integral part since the only way to not come off as a hypocrite would be to cancel service/accounts/whatever. And we all know how hard it is to give up something once you have it, or if its something that has become essential to life in modern society.

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1822

I tend to also opt out of responding to gmail sourced emails.....

Affects more than just me.

The only gmail I reply to is that relating to Wincustomize.com....because as site admin I am obliged to.

I'm not targetting Google....I'm targetting the methodology of Gmail...and how people are willing to distinguish between a human or a robot gatherer of information. [FYI....counting keywords is in fact information gathering, believe it or not].

Dammit...the recipient of the information is ultimately a human....just follow the six stages of separation....etc

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1822

You have far more to worry about from your credit card company, your grocery store, your bank, or any other institution you obtain services from.

None of those actively [or subversively] participate in the overt/covert interception of intellectual communications for the financial advancement of a third party....or any other reason...

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They do sell your information to third parties quite frequently. They can track your purchases, where and when you travel, they gather a ton of data about you that they can then analyze and sell to outside companies. They work with "partner" businesses. Once I had one credit card, I was suddenly bombarded with other credit card offers. When I moved, I had zero junk mail until I opened a new bank account in the area, suddenly it was all flooding in again.

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Jafo, do you believe in the Global Information Conspiracy, otherwise known as 'the Beast'?
(no offense meant)

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If you want a building permit...

Jafo - Now you are comparing Google to a function of municipal government? Bulding permits are legislated. You have to have them by law. Google is a free market product of a business that you are in no way required to have. There are a million different alternatives (multitudes of them free as well). Apples and oranges hello?

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though Echelon has a more substantiated existence...

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None of those actively [or subversively] participate in the overt/covert interception of intellectual communications for the financial advancement of a third party....or any other reason...

Wow thats pretty naive Jafo. Your buying demographics and habits are elements of the most valuable data-set on the planet and the credit companies routinely sell it, your address, and phone number to 3rd parties. Unless you have the coveted Mother Teresa Visa of course.

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