Gmail Makes Other Netmail Companies Cry...

Frankly if anyone wants the contents on my email they can blooy well have it!

sorry I disagree...it is an invasion of my privacy..they can't look

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it is an invasion of my privacy..

I submit that an invasion of my rivacy by someone who doesn't care about my emails to my wife is no invasion at all! Much like the traffic camera that captures your image on the way to work it is anonymous in it's meaninglessness. Only the people who know you would care and they aren't liekly to be hacking your gmail account.

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Personally I don't care about my emails being scanned by machine. It is not my individual data that they are interested in; it is have an ear to the pulse of society that is lucerative, and my not participating will not matter because, as I've said, Google has already won.

I'm interested in crypt-loop so that I can save important files like tax returns, financial records and so forth. It is would be accessible anywhere, be a pretty safe backup (although I wouldn't rely on just that), and be Pretty Secure.

And also because it would be extra geeky, and I like that.

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Personally I don't care about my emails being scanned by machine. It is not my individual data that they are interested in; it is have an ear to the pulse of society that is lucerative, and my not participating will not matter because, as I've said, Google has already won.

I'm interested in crypt-loop so that I can save important files like tax returns, financial records and so forth. It is would be accessible anywhere, be a pretty safe backup (although I wouldn't rely on just that), and be Pretty Secure.

And also because it would be extra geeky, and I like that.

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1829

I submit that an invasion of my rivacy by someone who doesn't care about my emails to my wife is no invasion at all!

Surrendering your rights to privacy may seem trivial when it's innocuous...however it sets precedence of your general apathy which a paedophile reading your child's communications can use as tacit defence.

If you do not care about your rights being violated in a 'small way' then you cannot argue FOR your rights as and when you choose or see fit.

I say good luck to all fools who do not care.

They deserve their rewards.

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Zoomba

Join Date 11/2002

+114

Jafo,

I think you're missing greywar's point. He's not saying "Go ahead, invade my privacy, take away my rights... I'll be over here reading my Lenin and Marx" He's saying that his concern over the security of a free email service is minimal. He expects privacy and security, but if for some reason that is breached, he doesn't have much to worry about as a result because there is nothing for them to get from his email that could harm him. It's kind of like someone stealing my Calculus notebook from college and reading all my margin notes and such. Sure, my privacy has been invaded and I do not like it... but it's not like losing my old Calc notes poses any threat to me.

If you're a privacy and security nut, you wouldn't use GMail, HotMail, YahooMail or any other free, web-based email service. You'd run off of a secured and private server. I use gmail for trivial stuff, regular communications etc. My main, more secure, address is where I send off all of my online bills etc...

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He's saying that his concern over the security of a free email service is minimal.

with all due respect Zoomba, what exactly is minimal? any invasion of privacy is unacceptable. it is not okay to say "sure invade my privacy a little" then try to aruge for rights as Jafo points out when it no longer suits your needs that your privacy is being invaded.

we are already seeing people being held inappropriately and accused of things because of their race, or country of origin and that seems to be an "acceptable" invasion of privacy based on possible phantoms of attack.

no, I say - it is not acceptable to invade my privacy. people wonder how things happen all of a sudden - with lax attitudes about privacy and security we are tempting the opening of a Pandora's box where there is no privacy because it is only "minimal"...

Raymond

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1829

I'm not missing anyone's point.

I think a lot of other people are missing the point about Gmail, and its invidious erosion of your privacy....targetting their commercial audience through rifling your garbage....how pathetic and crass.

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Zoomba

Join Date 11/2002

+114

*sigh*
I'm not saying the act of invasion is ok, what I'm saying is the concern over the contents of his email is minimal. He would avoid and prevent the invasion if possible, but on the chance it occurs, nothing of any importance is taken.

The worst anyone can do to me by hacking my gmail account is they'll have access to all sorts of stupid joke emails, livejournal responses and random spam.

If you're so ultra-concerned over privacy, do you also refuse to send to any Hotmail, Gmail or Yahoo addresses?

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1829

nothing of any importance is taken

Wrong.

Or rather...he has GIVEN up his rights to an expectation of privacy...to a corporate monolith who profits by communicating information to a commercial third party [who are entirely anonymous and unknown to you, and whose integrity and/or motives are not stated or known].

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GreenReaper

Join Date 05/2001

+32

Guys, it's a contract. Gmail isn't saying that you don't have the right to privacy. It is saying that you do, and asking you to waive those rights in return for providing you the service. You don't have to . . . but then, they don't have to provide you the service.

Honestly, I think you're being paranoid, Jafo. Their interest is in making money off advertising. The advertising is matched to your account through the use of keywords or phrases in your email. Your information isn't "passed to third-parties" - it's used by Gmail to figure out what ads to serve. What's the problem with that?

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Zoomba

Join Date 11/2002

+114

Jafo,

Do you also not have a bank account? Banks are able to pass on your information to third parties for purposes of advertising. By agreeing to the terms of an account with a bank, aren't you picking and choosing when you want to invoke your right to privacy? The same thing with any service... credit cards, video rental stores, your phone service. They all sell your personal information to outside parties beyond your knowledge. Or are these places different because they don't happen to be an Internet business? It's amazing how our paranoia over security and privacy went wild with the growth of the web, when these issues have existed for ages already.

I'd suggest a tinfoil hat, but there's always the possibility the tin foil manufacturers somehow track sales and then give those names to our evil alien overlords for a fee...

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GreenReaper

Join Date 05/2001

+32

It's not even that, Zoomba. Jafo appears to regard Google as a third party as much as the advertisers. It is a matter of trust. He does not trust google not to misuse emails or other personal information, to pass them out to other agencies. And yes, he's right, you have to trust google not to, or accept that they might if they felt it was appropriate. But there are many who do trust google, and who do not think that they would give it to the wrong people, and I think rightly so.

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I was going to post something on topic... but then I read all the comments! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! HOLY CRAP! Pure gold here!

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1829

Hey guys...I really don't care about your privacy being violated or diminished.

I just find it sad that you don't, either.

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any invasion of privacy is unacceptable

To me? Didn't I just say I could give a damn? Zoomba had it exactly right with the textbook metaphor...

Jafo the answer here is easy just don't sign up for free mail if you want privacy! Or failing that use one of the numerous encryption systems out there to protect your privacy. The fact remains that hackers are better at penetrating security than programmers are at devising it. Your main defenses against being hacked is anonymity of numbers. Sure it might be possible for someone to hack my gmil account if they had some reason to target mine out of the literally millions of Gmail users.

Heck let's assume they did get ahold of it and read everything in it. What would they have? Nothing what so ever. No credit cards, no proprietary software, and intellectual property, and no blackmil info. Once again why do I care? Answer : I don't care.

As for Google parsing my email so they can put up a small row of targeted ads? I give less than a shit. I don't click on ads or banners. Ever. Not once in as far asI can remember. So they give m a fee service in exchange for my web demographic data. Big freakin deal.

Jafo I think you either have a lot of very private things you wish to keep private (which is fine) or you are way over paranoid about the rest of the world's interest in your mundane email. As for the rage against the corporate machine bit, business and innovations thereof are not evil. Google doesn't want your kids. AOL takes care of that.

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It's amazing how our paranoia over security and privacy went wild with the growth of the web, when these issues have existed for ages already.

Actually, I think people are waking up that were very complacent about privacy and security issues before. Just because these "issues have existed for ages" doesn't mean I agree with it, have to like it, or think that it is right.

Just because you say "yes, I agree to have my email scanned, and that information can be sent to someone else so they can send me ads" doesn't make it right - why would anyone want to sign away rights? Especially, since just about everyone I know complains about pop up ads and unsolicited email on a daily basis - by agreeing to terms that allow your email to be scanned it "proves" to the less trustworthy people who bombard us with unsolicited items that we as individuals actually want to have ads come to us.

Just my opinion...

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I'd suggest a tinfoil hat, but there's always the possibility the tin foil manufacturers somehow track sales and then give those names to our evil alien overlords for a fee...

Nice! you must have posted that while I was penning my own screed

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GreenReaper

Join Date 05/2001

+32

Just because you say "yes, I agree to have my email scanned, and that information can be sent to someone else so they can send me ads" doesn't make it right - why would anyone want to sign away rights?

Because you get something of value for it!

I don't see how this is so hard to understand . . . the free email service is worth more than the limited invasions of your right to privacy that are undertaken to select ads for you. I don't have anything to hide on email in respect to those parties that will see it (Google and official authorities that are entitled to request information under a warrant). Therefore, it has essentially zero value to me. So, I am more than willing to get something that is of greater than zero value to me in exchange for it.

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Zoomba

Join Date 11/2002

+114

The potential exists for every service you sign up for to misuse your information. Hell, Stardock could decide one day they want to sell their subscriber information to some marketing firm. Not saying they would, in fact I'm almost 100% positive they wouldn't. Violating user trust like that has a major draw back... customer backlash.

Google is in the public eye big-time now, they're a publicly traded company, a lot of smart people are watching Google, waiting for it to screw up. The absolute worst thing they could do is sell their information, because the hammer would come down hard on them. Plus, what do they have to gain by selling your information to someone else? They're already making buckets of money by doing things in an open and honest way. Why muck with success?

I trust my information to companies like Stardock and Google because they are built on a principle of doing the right thing by their customers. I can't say I trust my bank, my credit card company or my telecom provider nearly as much, but what choice to I have aside from becoming Amish?

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1829

I can't say I trust my bank, my credit card company or my telecom provider nearly as much

I must admit I 'need' to trust my bank...it has my money.

Gmail is a public co....so what? Telling you they will invade your privacy for fun and profit beforehand doesn't make them cute and cuddly....it just means they have to be up-front with it because anything less and people would eventually have their balls.

Either way...they have the fun and profit...

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Especially, since just about everyone I know complains about pop up ads and unsolicited email on a daily basis

There are pop ups and spam on Gmail? Where? I personally have *never* gotten spam there. Not even one. This is no different than television ads. Free service in exchange for free info. In TV's case it is your viewing habits. Here it is email and click throughs. Same same.

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Zoomba

Join Date 11/2002

+114

Just because you say "yes, I agree to have my email scanned, and that information can be sent to someone else so they can send me ads" doesn't make it right

Actually, in this case it isn't a right or wrong issue... it's an issue of a contract you agreed to. Your allowing scanning and ads is the payment for services rendered. You don't have to take the service if that is a large enough issue for you. It becomes wrong if you sign up for a service that initially promises in its terms that your data is safe and secure and will never be sold to third parties, but the agreement is later changed and they mine all data from before the change (though not wrong if they only mine data since the change since you could discontinue service).

You have no rights when it comes to most online services really. You are entering into a contract for a service that is non-essential. It is not right or wrong since no one is forcing you to use these services.

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the only point I am trying to make: it is an invasion of privacy.

I am not talking about the contents of the emails or trying to hide anything from anyone or that there are "secrets" to be gained by scannning the email, or even if it is going to sold to a third-party (or some alien overlord): I did not say/imply any of those things.

Even by agreeing to the contract it is still an invasion of privacy: just because someone agrees to it doesn't make it any less an invasion.

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Zoomba

Join Date 11/2002

+114

Invasion implies an unwilling entrance. You can not invade my house if I open the door and invite you in. An invasion of privacy is when your personal information is obtained in a way you have not explicitly agreed to or is not legal. This can be in the form of a hacker, a peeping tom, a company selling your data when they said they wouldn't etc...

Contracts are an example of sacrificing privacy and rights in exchange for a service or good. They aren't an invasion.

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