Storm Front

Storm Front.  Ah, the best of all the maps that come with the game.  I was going to write up a series on all the maps included with the game, but far too few of them are good enough to bother with, and why repeat the original error?  Many people have posted about wanting easier download options for maps in Rebellion, but I want something far more radical, a vastly slimmed down map pool with the crap maps removed or drastically reworked by people who understand what they are doing, hopefully before any kind of ladder is implemented.  Even the random maps need work. 

So what is so good about Storm Front that is missing from other, inferior, maps?  Well first of all there is the varied terrain.  Storm is a single star map without wormholes, but the only other terrain missing is the space junk/asteroid belt- unlike, say Maelstrom, a 3s map which is a reasonable concept until you realise there are no neutral gravwells at all- and Maelstrom is one of the best of the other maps.  Also the problem with 1 vs 1 multistars is that they tend to choke at the star, unless the designer makes a special effort to prevent this, and this effort isn't present in maps like Agamemnon's Bounty.  Wormholes might be an improvement, also we might consider a separate star with just a further neutral, to involve the entire range of techs.

Next there is the layout.  If you've played random 1v1 maps they tend to be strung out so that the players are many jumps from each other, and they are narrow, so that far too many choke at the pirates or sun.  As they are narrow they often depend on a battle over a single key central planet.  Also, like all random maps, they can be wildly imbalanced.  Storm Front is balanced, and has three main 'lanes' of attack that are not easy to choke, through the gas, star, and magnetic-storm-magnetic.  Also, Storm creates 'skirmish space' between the two main groups of planets and between the two smaller side groups of planets, as well as by its use of dead asteroids.  This both allows more room for manoeuvre without the creation of vast fleets as a byproduct, and means that the struggle over a single central planet is rarely decisive- you can survive the loss of both the centre roids and the volcanic without necessarily having lost the game. 'Skirmish space' is a concept used by nearly all the RTS games I've ever played, but it is a rara avis in Sins, vastly to the detriment of the game.

Storm Front is sometimes criticised for favouring the Vasari because of the central neutral extractors.  This is somewhat true, however there are only three neutrals, whereas the consensus is that 2-3 per player is a fair amount.  Also, the lack of planets means that there are fewer extractors in the game overall than usual, and the introduction of trade on starbases means that long trade routes are possible than in the game as first released.  If you have to play Vasari with only 1-2 neutral extractors to take, which happens fairly frequently, then it is difficult to say that you have any advantage at all.  Perhaps a junk/asteroid belt near each homeworld would also help, along with a Backstab-style one-way wormhole leading to it?

Finally, like all maps Storm Front can be heavily affected by the militia defences.  The desert can be a gift with only one heavy cruiser, or very difficult to take with very heavy defences, and this has a large impact on the early game.  However, the desert is really the only planet that this applies to, unlike the randoms where you can get almost impossible situations.  Storm Front will always offer you its two roids, and you can strike early for the two roids in the centre if you feel you have to.  Better than being roided, with a volcanic and a magnetic cloud, no?

So then, on to another of my pet projects.  I've always wanted to do a through analysis of the game, illustrated by a series of replays.  Having the same map for each game is really helpful for analysis.  However I've never considered myself as one of the top players and though this isn't necessarily a fatal handicap, I'd like to at least be playing at near to my best level and I simply haven't played very much over the last year.  This can be solved by more effort on my behalf, though my relative lack of ability does make it more difficult to illustrate the sort of handicaps that you incur if you start with a Revelation, for instance, or refuse to use the turret method of colonisation.  What I hadn't been able to solve beforehand was that the game itself was too imbalanced to make it a valuable exercise, as first the Illuminator and then the awful overboosted Skirantra simply ruined games.  The current version of the game (if only we had this version two years ago many players might never have drifted away) is somewhat more playable, though I do have reservations about the current Advent ability to cope with starbases in plasma storms, because of their stupidly expensive anti-starbase cruiser.   

However, I've always said that balance problems are always far better discussed with the aid of replays, so it might be best to get on with that... I still need more practice, and I'm not going to post any replays without having asked my opponents if they object before the game.  One of my greatest regrets in Sins is that I never posted a great 3 match series of replays from summer where we had a 3v3 with the same teams for 3 straight games, as I've never seen that sort of replay before, and it is so common in other RTS games.  I'll try to organise some best-of-three 1v1 games when possible.  Unfortunately a full 'set' of six games is unlikely to be possible unless by a special effort.  PM if interested.  Or maybe one of the genuine top players could play the games instead and I could revert to my favoured commentary 'eco' slot?  I wish.  

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Reply #1 Top

Storm Front is balanced, and has three main 'lanes' of attack that are not easy to choke, through the gas, star, and magnetic-storm-magnetic. Also, Storm creates 'skirmish space' between the two main groups of planets and between the two smaller side groups of planets, as well as by its use of dead asteroids. This both allows more room for manoeuvre without the creation of vast fleets as a byproduct, and means that the struggle over a single central planet is rarely decisive- you can survive the loss of both the centre roids and the volcanic without necessarily having lost the game. 'Skirmish space' is a concept used by nearly all the RTS games I've ever played, but it is a rara avis in Sins, vastly to the detriment of the game.

A problem in this map at least might be that the "skirmish space" is quite large, which might be a problem in Sins because of how much damage can be done to a retreating fleet, and because of the large disparity between frigate factories when a player is attacking or defending. If you cross the sun or the storm/clouds or the Gas Giant to attack the enemy, won't you have to have an overwhelming fleet advantage in order to actually take whichever target planet? (the enemy can easily and quickly replace their losses with factories; you can't) And then if you're forced to retreat, you might lose a lot of your fleet enroute, especially if the enemy has a lot of long range frigates.

And what incentive is there for a defending player to engage an attacking fleet (presumably larger) in the skirmish space if the defending player can simply sit on their world with a couple factories?

That said, it would make things more interesting (and would develop more involved strategy) if more maps were designed around fighting for control of a skirmish- gravity well, rather than most battles being almost solely in friendly or enemy space. If a Space Junk or Gas Giant could hold like 5-8 neutral extractors or something like that to greatly increase its strategic importance, we would see more interesting strategies. (that said, Storm Front does an OK job at this sort of thing by making control of the side neutral wells important for access to the side asteroids / Volcano)

Finally, like all maps Storm Front can be heavily affected by the militia defences. The desert can be a gift with only one heavy cruiser, or very difficult to take with very heavy defences, and this has a large impact on the early game. However, the desert is really the only planet that this applies to,

If you have a good handle on how to tackle militia, all that really matters much is how many siege frigates there are (1 to 4) - but that variation can still significantly affect the early game as you said.

Another thing is that some Sins players like choke points a lot, which Storm Front doesn't really have. Whether that's good for the game or not is another question though.

Reply #2 Top

Quoting Wrath89, reply 1
If a Space Junk or Gas Giant could hold like 5-8 neutral extractors or something like that to greatly increase its strategic importance, we would see more interesting strategies. (that said, Storm Front does an OK job at this sort of thing by making control of the side neutral wells important for access to the side asteroids / Volcano)

That is an interesting idea. Once Sins settles down (in terms of new patches) I hope to made a small noncombat adjustment mod, taking the best ideas on how to improve culture, make trade port spams less viable, and now probably this as well. Of course would that be a good change globally or only on maps like this where everything is in the center?

Reply #3 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 2
That is an interesting idea. Once Sins settles down (in terms of new patches) I hope to made a small noncombat adjustment mod, taking the best ideas on how to improve culture, make trade port spams less viable, and now probably this as well. Of course would that be a good change globally or only on maps like this where everything is in the center?

Your mod, your choice, of course. That said, I think it would be nice if something like this was a global adjustment, because it would make large skirmishes in neutral wells much more common. (Maybe junk and storms could hold 4-5 neutrals and Gas Giants could hold 6-7 or something?)

Reply #4 Top

Storm Front is set up so that retreating fleets dont necessarily cross large spaces, though.  Half of the 'home area' is composed of roids.  Also, rather than cross the star or gas you could jump to a storm and traverse that instead.  Another possible tactic is to set up a starbase to cover a retreat.  What the skirmish space concept does do is to allow a retreating fleet a chance when it arrives at its destination, because it gets much more of an advantage in terms of reinforcement than it would in a gravwell immediately adjacent to a major battle.

It is not really possible to defend either of the side spaces in the manner you describe without allowing an enemy fleet a chance to attack the home area.  If you are reduced to the home area building large numbers of factories greatly reduces the limited number of logistics slots you have.  Also, you cant defend the dead asteroids in this manner, and without them it is increasingly hard to defend.

I can't see there being a problem with the neutrals as you suggest, if I wanted a 6-9 extractor skirmish space i would just add roid belts around a gas... which is much what Storm Front is.  It might be a suggestion to experiment with 1-4 neutrals rather than 0-3 though.  Nine extractors is a lot of income for any one gravwell, and what I like about skirmish space is the difficulty to dominate it fully- otherwise you sort of miss the point.

There are two major problems with trade ports- trade ships respawn far too quickly and are far too difficult to catch and kill, and refineries are too difficult to place effectively on most maps.  If you increase trade ship respawn time to say 120s and refinery coverage to 2 jumps rather than one you could solve both. 

What Storm Front is very good at is testing multitasking, which many players hate.  The rush players and single big fleet players tend to have a harder time than is usual on singleplayer maps. 

But... suck it and see?  Play the map rather than just theorycraft it?

Reply #5 Top

Quoting DesConnor, reply 4
There are two major problems with trade ports- trade ships respawn far too quickly and are far too difficult to catch and kill, and refineries are too difficult to place effectively on most maps. If you increase trade ship respawn time to say 120s and refinery coverage to 2 jumps rather than one you could solve both.

Sort of on a tangent, but one of the other big complaints put against trade is that it has no diminishing returns. You can only have 3 refinery ships per extractor but you can max out a desert planet with 9 trade ports without any lose of efficiency. If I do get around to making this I will probably make a small precentage trade reduction per trade port, make trade and refinery ships spawn slower and have more of the income actually generated by these ships, so losing them will do more damage to your economy.

Reply #6 Top

For all its shortcomings, I have to agree with Desconnor that Storm Front is far and away the best stock map to ship with the game.  It's the only one in the current lineup that I would even consider for a competitive ladder.

Do have to disagree about starbase-based trade.  The number of extra links you can achieve is minimal and the cost to get them is quite substantial, and there aren't that many trade ports you can support on the limited logistics space offered by this map.  Really, if you can hold a starbase at the gas giant or sun for long enough for this to pay off you've probably got things locked down anyways.

Reply #7 Top

I think I have to agree with DesConnor and Darvin...this map really is pretty impressive given its competition...

What I like about this map is the planets...as pointed out earlier, the only real crapshoot is the militia size on that desert...furthermore, the neutrals are equally accessible to everyone, so even if one grav well has 4 and another has none, both players see the same situation...there are however two reservations I have with this map....

First, the amount of "neutral territory" or "skirmish space" in the middle...it's not so much that this is bad per se, but I can definitely see this map leading to a lot of long entrenchment games simply because neither side has the capability to do a proper offensive...even if the players split with one going for the two asteroids (center-right) and one going for the volcanic (center-left), you still got three jumps from a frigate factory before you are hitting something other than a dead asteroid....

Because of this, it is my opinion that this map strongly favors TEC...the large skirmish spaces inherently benefit the faction that can produce ships the fastest and recoup from losses...non TEC factions just aren't going to be able to put enough pressure on TEC because of the distances involved....going into the late game (which I think will occur very often), development mandate is going to give TEC a huge advantage because of all the asteroids and dead asteroids...I know that is a lot of civ labs but that is seven more structures (out of a total 26) and you can always scuttle back down to 3 or 4 civ labs once you research development mandate....furthermore, I don't think TEC will need more than three mil labs for most of the game, so getting six civ labs really is viable unless the TEC player fails to get any of the middle planets...

Additionally, I think the factory SBs is another huge benefit to TEC, I can easily see plopping one or two of those near the middle....that dramatically changes the faction balance on the map (it'd be like putting a planet that can only be reached via kostura)...

My second reservation is the location of that desert planet...militia differences can make that one planet a huge swing early game...I would rather see it switched with the nearby asteroid (the one between the desert and the dead asteroid)...that way, both players can grab an easy 2 asteroids without having to deal with the crapshoot desert....

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 7
Because of this, it is my opinion that this map strongly favors TEC

Indeed, I was thinking the exact same thing.

Reply #9 Top

I have played Storm Front for quite some time and for most of that time Vasari has been regarded as strong on the map because of the mid-neutrals.  Also the map has a gas and a star at key points and this makes carriers even more effective compared to the single-star random games where they are still usually strong.  Gas and star gravwells can make flak less effective against fighters which hurts the LRF based TEC fleets.  The distance also makes a Sova embargo rush, the current bete noire, less plausible.  For all the times I've played the map Development Mandate is yet to have been a decisive factor.  I suppose its because TEC is normally considered weaker late game?   Or maybe because games where TEC get the upper hand dont reach that stage?

I wouldn't go so far as to say that you are wrong, as I noted before I haven't played much recently and I've never been a top level player so my experiences have limited validity.  You might be overestimating the likelihood of a stalemate developing, however, as it is fairly tricky to turtle and retain any sort of grasp on the centre.  Seven extra slots barely makes up for those lost if you lose control of the roids and volcanic, and of course the resource advantage then becomes a huge issue.

I also don't see what you are getting at with concerns over the desert blocking expansion, its not as if the second roid is otherwise inaccessible, as you can just jump to it over the dead roid?  The desert is definitely an excellent place to practice 'skilled' colonisation techniques, unfortunately mine are still somewhat lacking, much to my detriment!

My main concern is the Advent ability to deal with starbases in plasma storms, because of the incredibly pricey Advent anti-structure cruiser.  However that is noted as being a general weakness with the game in its current version.

I dunno, my current plan is to get more practice on the map, and when I feel more comfortable with my standard of play to start posting replays that might resolve some of these contending theorycraft interpretations.  Anyone is welcome to help me practice or to participate in the games or sets for replays.  I will be strict about asking permission before posting a replay though, so no-one should worry that early attempts at the map, before they get used to it, will somehow find their way onto the forum!  The object is to discover some of the best methods of playing the map, rather than to ambush players on unfamiliar terrain. 

Reply #10 Top

Quoting DesConnor, reply 9
Vasari has been regarded as strong on the map because of the mid-neutrals

Neutrals certainly favor Vasari....however most of their advantage lies in getting the neutrals earlier than anyone else...if rushing isn't very viable, and a game is drawn out for a long time, I don't know if that advantage does Vasari a whole lot of good...

Additionally, holding onto them is easier for Vasari in general, but I think certain situations negate that advantage...being a 1v1, both players can focus solely on grabbing those neutrals and holding on to them....furthermore, with so much space it's going to be hard to consistently kill any scouts and colony ships...that distance also hurts the AM either can bring to the neutrals, something that heavily favors the colony ships on a per ship basis, so using less fleet supply merely puts the Vasari scout on par with the colony ship....

I won't deny that Vasari may have an advantage...I just don't see it as being a very big one...

Quoting DesConnor, reply 9
Also the map has a gas and a star at key points and this makes carriers even more effective compared to the single-star random games where they are still usually strong.  Gas and star gravwells can make flak less effective against fighters which hurts the LRF based TEC fleets.  The distance also makes a Sova embargo rush, the current bete noire, less plausible.

Very good points....I'd even add that Vasari have the most powerful SC, which makes your points even more relevant....

Quoting DesConnor, reply 9
For all the times I've played the map Development Mandate is yet to have been a decisive factor.

To be honest I'm not certain on this factor...but on the premise that stalemates are typical, I think development mandate would be a huge asset...

Quoting DesConnor, reply 9
You might be overestimating the likelihood of a stalemate developing, however, as it is fairly tricky to turtle and retain any sort of grasp on the centre.

I don't know...there are a lot of choke points to cover, but it is also very difficult to go on the offensive anywhere but at the center...3 grav wells is a huge distance to cover if you are trying to reinforce an attack....that is not something the TEC will have to worry about if they have an SB with a factory...

Any map can clearly enhance one factions strengths or prey on their weaknesses...I just think Vasari and Advent get the shorter end of the stick here....

Quoting DesConnor, reply 9
its not as if the second roid is otherwise inaccessible, as you can just jump to it over the dead roid

Only feasible with a colony cap...and you'll want that colony cap at the desert or the ice...by the time a normal colony frigate could get there and have enough AM to colonize, your colony cap would have already left the desert...

Admittedly I've only played on this map once, so what I've said thus far is based on more theory and extrapolating other game experiences....

 

 

Reply #11 Top

The better players tend to colonise even the side roids fairly early with colony frigates.  If colony frigates can be kept alive in the gravwell you can jump them earlier.  I always wondered what the consequences would be for the game if it took 100AM to jump, rather than just depriving you of 100AM if you have 100AM or more.  Can this be modded?

I'm not sure that the second roid is an issue.  Also, switching the roid and desert would make the 'home area' easier to defend and more stalemate prone.  Another concept that the game might use is a victory condition where if you lose your home the game ends, with the ability to switch HQ planet altered into making a planet an auxiliary HQ.  To make it work Auxiliary Government from starbases might have to be a damage mitigation factor, rather than confer total invulnerability.  Then you might have a valid form of shorter game?

Here is a potential issue with Storm Front that hasn't been mentioned: the bottom or Player1 start seems more vulnerable to factories at the volcanic than the top start is to either the volcanic or the side roids.  The jump from the volcanic, to the gas but not very far across the gas gravwell, then across the dead roid, seems significantly shorter than the roid-storm-star-dead roid jump attacking the top home from the right side.  Is this a real area of concern?  Of course the converse is that the second roid in the home area for Player0 is much more vulnerable to the volcanic if Player1 has it, while Player1s second roid is not as vulnerable if Player0 owns the side roids.

Reply #12 Top

I always wondered what the consequences would be for the game if it took 100AM to jump, rather than just depriving you of 100AM if you have 100AM or more.

Would mean you'd need to heavily nerf any ability that removes antimatter (detonate antimatter) because they'd basically be a gravity bomb with a duration longer than cooldown.  And you'd need to completely redesign the Disciple (which has antimatter but no AM regeneration), and this would be a massive nerf to all support cruisers since they'd effectively be left behind to meet certain doom in any battle.

I think there are way too many practical issues to even consider going down this road.

Reply #13 Top

For a complete conversion mod, it may be okay...all ships could have AM for the sole purpose of "fuel"....abilities wouldn't require AM, but would simply be limited by cooldown...

Not a system I favor...but I suppose it's viable if all the ships and abilities were redone...

Reply #14 Top

For a total conversion, yes, but at that point you're basically throwing out the game as it exists and building a new one from scratch.

Reply #15 Top

I just wondered whether it was technically feasible to mod the the game in that manner, is there a way to impose an am cost before a jump can be made?  Jumps can be delayed in the current version but the jump routine cannot be prevented.  As a straight mod I agree that it would be a non-starter, scouting would be too involved for another matter.  You could impose the cost only on colony frigates, on the grounds that they have to have enough am to pay for colonists survival in phase space, then make it different for colony caps (like carriers and carrier caps).  However my other proposal that it should be impossible to colonise a gravwell with hostile militia present seems a better type of nerf.  Is this moddable?

My 'practice' sessions have gone fairly badly, I've been responding poorly to rush threats, however thats possibly a matter of shedding the rust and getting used to game timings again- I hope.  I still need to improve my scouting, especially defensively.  But perhaps I'm just getting outplayed in the early game.  More effort needed before making an attempt at decent replays- of course replays from anyone else are welcome.  Meanwhile, lets theorycraft some specific questions on openings:

How would you play the central neutral extractors, try to grab them early or arrive later with more fleet?  How much does losing a scout or colony ship cost in terms of extractor output?  Should you spend any time clearing the central areas of pirates?

What order would you colonise in?  Given the layout, would you go for a colony cap?  Every time I try to use a colony cap its been poor but I've seen others make it work, though you really need to take care of it.  How would you react to a well-fortified desert, take it anyway or ignore and attack earlier?  Not only the number of siege but also the number of LRF can be important, as LRF can destroy turrets if left alone, though I suppose you could always build more.  This is where carrier caps shine, its just so much easier to snipe siege with them.

How much force can you afford to devote to the side objectives?  I've seen games won or lost when either I or my opponent becomes too focused on the side roids or volcanic at the expense of the home area.  Against a competent Vasari using assault starbases this can be fatal. 

When and where should you starbase?  When and where culture?  It is difficult to extend culture over the opponents area so its mostly used for economic purposes.  There seems no real spot for a refinery on the map, that might be another weakness as a good 1 vs 1 map should have one.  The plasma storms make starbases invulnerable to strikecraft, which can be huge, but they are also without support from repair and turrets, cant use strikecraft in defence and seem extremely vulnerable to TEC Ogrovs. 

How many factories and where?  Would you attempt to create a forward base on the volcanic or in the enemy home area?  The volcanic can be a key area for factories, on the other hand many players avoid taking volcanics because of the low economic payoff. 

I briefly considered playing Storm Front with pirates on- but it doesn't work, unfortunately.  Would the pirate system be more viable if the bid system wasn't so all-or-nothing?  That is, the pirates would mount basic raids on everyone every raid, but money you put in would enhance their raids against whoever you put bounty on?  

Reply #16 Top

Quoting DesConnor, reply 15
I just wondered whether it was technically feasible to mod the the game in that manner, is there a way to impose an am cost before a jump can be made?  Jumps can be delayed in the current version but the jump routine cannot be prevented.  As a straight mod I agree that it would be a non-starter, scouting would be too involved for another matter.  You could impose the cost only on colony frigates, on the grounds that they have to have enough am to pay for colonists survival in phase space, then make it different for colony caps (like carriers and carrier caps).  However my other proposal that it should be impossible to colonise a gravwell with hostile militia present seems a better type of nerf.  Is this moddable?

Well.....man, I don't know....I don't think "entering hyperspace" or something to that effect is a trigger for any abilities...I hear rumors that Dawn of Victory has "Fuel" but I have no idea how that has been implemented...

It may be possible that every planet applies a buff to all local ships that disables phase jumping, and then each ship has an ability that clears that buff...the subjugator's DisableImmune I know clears disablement, but I don't know if it clears disabled phase jumping....of course, even if you got that to work I'm sure there are going to be loopholes...all in all, I'd bet whatever you do to get "fuel" implemented is going to be clumsy and buggy.....

Quoting DesConnor, reply 15
What order would you colonise in?

Scouts and colony cap go to asteroid by HW and colonize....

Colony frigate goes to that asteroid, scouts (and maybe LF) go to ice world to wipe out siege frigates (and maybe all militia depending on size), then colony frigate moves in to colonize...meanwhile, colony cap heads for either next asteroid (skip over dead) or goes for desert, depending on militia size (probably want scouts to go with it if hitting desert to take out krosov's faster)...obviously you take the other planet last....

At this point, turreting may have had to occur on ice or desert....

Colony frigate now can head off to take neutrals (the strategy of which seriously depends on how many neutral extractors there actually are, which is random...

After that, which planets you go for I don't know....I personally would check out where the enemy is going, and send my fleet that way...it's a tough call, and it's one of the reasons I don't like fixed maps because in a random game half the fun is making a call you aren't sure is right....playing this map enough times probably will yield a consistent answer...

Quoting DesConnor, reply 15
How many factories and where?  Would you attempt to create a forward base on the volcanic or in the enemy home area?  The volcanic can be a key area for factories, on the other hand many players avoid taking volcanics because of the low economic payoff. 

Definitely use middle volcanic or asteroids as forward bases....factories before then?  Probably split between the asteroid by the HW and the ice planet...

Other questions I'm not really sure on....to me, it would really depend on how the early game goes...I can see myself with several SBs, or none...I can even see myself just skipping over culture for 5 military labs really fast if I felt it would be necessary...

Reply #17 Top

One problem with 1 vs 1 random maps is that they can be very imbalanced, and they also have a nasty tendency to choke atthe sun or pirate base.  Even if this doesn't happen, there is very rarely any scope for manoeuvre, it becomes a push over a central key planet.  With only a few planets the possibilities are limited.  I just don't value the uncertainty as much as the potential cost- and as I have continually noted, having galactic space-faring factions unaware of what planets are in the same system as their base is wildly improbable.  Even the Romans were aware of some of the major planets in our system.

Would you always go for a colony cap then?  It just seems that the number of planets you take with the colony cap might not justify it- your scheme has maybe three?  You are going to need colony frigates anyway for neutrals.  Also one further cost of turreting is the loss of experience on your cap.  How quickly can you take the entire 'home area'?

I have been considering whether a bo3 system might be best for the replay games.  It takes six games for a full set without mirror matches, or nine with, but this is too many.  How about a system where you have to play each of the factions once in a bo3, but the order is up to you?  The only problem I can see is the pregame selection, it seems a pity that there is no option to conceal your selection without going random, perhaps it might take a referee.  Still no-one keen to try 1v1s?  I'm much less of a challenge than the pro players you all seem to want to get destroyed by..

Reply #18 Top

Quoting DesConnor, reply 17
One problem with 1 vs 1 random maps is that they can be very imbalanced, and they also have a nasty tendency to choke atthe sun or pirate base.

Agree completely...simply taking out the pirate base on a small random map can make a big difference though...it's still not perfect, but to be honest I'd rather see an attempt to improve the random 1v1 map than try to make a perfect fixed map...

Quoting DesConnor, reply 17
Would you always go for a colony cap then? It just seems that the number of planets you take with the colony cap might not justify it- your scheme has maybe three? You are going to need colony frigates anyway for neutrals. Also one further cost of turreting is the loss of experience on your cap. How quickly can you take the entire 'home area'?

Well, that colony cap is going to be essential in grabbing those 3 planets in the center...without a colony cap, it's going to be rough...if you just used colony frigates, the asteroids will be a bit easier because you can send a colony frigate to the star for the AM regen bonus, but that still is a pain (and only helps for one of the asteroids)...

By the time you are going to be in any serious combat, you will probably have a 2nd cap anyway (and a carrier would almost certainly be the ship to go with)...

Whether turreting is necessary is entirely dependent on militia size and faction...for example, Advent will want massed disciples anyway so you might as well build those to deal with militia...Vasari on the other hand will want just kanraks so building turrets in light of skirmishers would be to your benefit...

The only planets you will probably need to turret are the ice and desert...the problem if you don't turret them is that you have to leave ships behind, which hurts your ability to quickly nab and reinforce one of the center planets...to be honest, the opportunity cost of losing construction capability on a planet or delaying your rush to the center far outweighs the loss of experience for your cap...

I can't do 1v1s for this week, way too busy and too unpredictable of a schedule...but next week would be more open...

Reply #19 Top

Well, that colony cap is going to be essential in grabbing those 3 planets in the center...without a colony cap, it's going to be rough...if you just used colony frigates, the asteroids will be a bit easier because you can send a colony frigate to the star for the AM regen bonus, but that still is a pain (and only helps for one of the asteroids)...

Not at all. One colony frigate can easily be used for taking one of the asteroids, alone, and can then warp to the other asteroid (alone) once its hull has repaired enough. There's no other limitation.

Whether turreting is necessary is entirely dependent on militia size and faction...for example, Advent will want massed disciples anyway so you might as well build those to deal with militia...Vasari on the other hand will want just kanraks so building turrets in light of skirmishers would be to your benefit...

The only planets you will probably need to turret are the ice and desert...the problem if you don't turret them is that you have to leave ships behind, which hurts your ability to quickly nab and reinforce one of the center planets...to be honest, the opportunity cost of losing construction capability on a planet or delaying your rush to the center far outweighs the loss of experience for your cap...

Agreed, except: "leaving ships behind" instead of turreting is my method of choice, at least in 1v1 matches (any setting). It only takes a single scout. My second carrier cap and initial combat fleet, once built, can then take care of the leftover militia easily.

I don't know anyone else who uses this strategy, but it's extremely helpful, especially when there are tons of militia in the gravity well.

Reply #20 Top

Quoting Wrath89, reply 19
Not at all. One colony frigate can easily be used for taking one of the asteroids, alone, and can then warp to the other asteroid (alone) once its hull has repaired enough. There's no other limitation.

AM is a huge limitation....the nearest planet that could have a frigate factory is 3-4 jumps away, and if your opponent arrives even remotely close to the same time you do, you can't afford to sit around and wait 3 minutes for the colony ship to regenerate enough AM for colonization...

I mean, you could throw some scouts and a colony frigate from the very beginning at those asteroids, but if the enemy happens to expand with their fleet in that direction you're hosed....

Reply #21 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 20

Quoting Wrath89, reply 19Not at all. One colony frigate can easily be used for taking one of the asteroids, alone, and can then warp to the other asteroid (alone) once its hull has repaired enough. There's no other limitation.

AM is a huge limitation....the nearest planet that could have a frigate factory is 3-4 jumps away, and if your opponent arrives even remotely close to the same time you do, you can't afford to sit around and wait 3 minutes for the colony ship to regenerate enough AM for colonization...

I mean, you could throw some scouts and a colony frigate from the very beginning at those asteroids, but if the enemy happens to expand with their fleet in that direction you're hosed....

You need to maneuver properly, but a single colony ship can warp into an asteroid well with no AM and move around avoiding fire until it colonizes. The real limitation is hull strength.