Okay...so I tried out the changes...now, I haven't had a chance yet to test them very much...I was only able to play a 1v1 against an unfair AI and didn't quite finish, but here are my feelings so far...

I really like LRFs not being as good against heavy armor....most definitely requires a more varied fleet composition with lots of LFs (I was using about 1/2 LRF, 1/3 LF, and 1/6 Flak for most of the early game)...in one situation I actually built only LRF because the enemy through a capital ship at me (its the best early counter), but when they sent reinforcements of some flak and LFs, the LRFs didn't fair very well (would have been an easy victory before)...

However, I don't like the speed nerf to LRFs (sorry Darvin)...I was playing TEC who have the best LRF and the one with the most range, and honestly they were too slow...it seemed to take forever for them to get across a gravity well or even get from the factory to the battle...with LFs more valuable, I think LRFs need to be a very strong counter against them...LFs are fast, I really don't think any counter to a fast ship can afford to be terribly slow...if LRMs aren't very good at a slow speed, Illuminators certainly won't (which is why I think Darvin suggested only lowering the speeds of LRMs and Kanraks)...

So, I think LRF vs heavy armor nerf is good...slower LRFs, not so good, the reduced effectiveness against heavy armor whittles down their numbers by a fair amount; the reduced effectiveness against caps penalizes them enough, no speed nerf is needed...haven't yet really had a good chance to progress my game where the AI is actually using lots of HCs...started with an Akkan and the speed boost was noticeable...it no longer lags behind the fleet...the AI built 2 Radiances, but I didn't really get a good feel for the speed boost (since they're dumb and never retreat caps)...I will say though, there was one battle where that battleship speed was noticeable, a Radiance charged right into my fleet and activated animosity before the rest of the enemy fleet was even in range...so, cap ship speeds also good...

All in all, I like the changes so far minus the LRF speed nerf....

By the way, a cumulative change log would be nice since there were a lot of small changes...

I definitely think it is worth trying...the modded speed actually is 450, so I'd say 475...it's small, but it'll still be noticeable since it will slow early fleets down (that are just LRF, LF, and flak)...

Not exactly sure if this is the best place to bring it up, but I do think it involves capital ships and counters...

First, I think Vasari fighters and sentinels need to have a weapon other than phase missiles...I'm not the only person to suggest this, but the issue lies in which weapon to put on them...

We basically have three choices...pulse gun, pulse beam, and wave cannon...

Currently, in all 3 factions, bombers and LRFs share the faction's primary weapon while flak and fighters share the same weapon...

So, from that standpoint, sentinels and fighters should have the same weapon type...though, this is not a requirement...

My vote goes to pulse beams, but it'd be good to get lots of opinions and reasons on this...

Also, since LFs are going to be much more important, I think it is only fair that Skirmishers get a boost in DPS...per fleet supply, cobalts do about 1.9 and disciples do about 2.1...my preliminary suggestion would be to buff the skirmisher from 1.7 DPS per fleet supply point to about 2 DPS per fleet supply point, putting it in between the other two LFs...

In order to do this, the skirmisher's DPS would have to be raised from 12 to 14...that is my proposal...feedback appreciated...

Bombers most definitely need to stay with PMs...that is a Vasari strength and I don't think it should be taken away...

The nice thing with pulse beams is that it is easier to get (LFs are now more important so pulse gun is going to get researched anyway)...but, wave cannons allow +30% instead of just +20% and are on the enforcer...

Vasari are getting hit hard...now, I think this is good since their advantages in some cases were ridiculous...but, they can't be nerfed to oblivion, they need to stay as strong as the other factions...if fighters and sentinels lose PMs while skirmishers become more important, then DPS needs to go up on these units (I'd even argue DPS may need to go up on the enforcer)...

Right now TEC/Advent/Vasari ships do the following DPS per fleet supply point...

• Garda     3.83333
• Defense  4.5
• Sentinel  3.26666

• Cobalt       1.9
• Disciple      2.125
• Skirmisher  1.71428

• Kodiak   1.8
• Destra    1.9
• Enforcer  1.91666

• Ogrov     1.875
• Solanus  0.833333

I would add on to this that LRFs and Illuminators do almost exactly the same DPS, but only half of that is frontal for the illuminator...also, Vasari fighters are almost identical to Advent fighters in DPS, so I'd leave those alone as well even though they're losing PMs...

Now, looking at these 4 sets of numbers...

Vasari most definitely need more DPS from the skirmisher and sentinel (especially since it's losing PMs)...

With the nerf to LRFs, I think LRMs are going to be extremely dominant because of their range and cost...so, I think it is fair to say that the 1st/2nd/3rd LRF is LRM/Kanrak/Illuminator in terms of taking out LFs as well as caps and structures (the next two most vulnerable things to LRFs)...since LRFs are less important, I don't think any buffing is necessary to the illuminator...it may be weak but the Advent have strong LFs and flak...

As far as flak goes, the rankings are Defense/Garda/Sentinel...and for LF, the rankings are Disciple/Cobalt/Skirmisher...

Advent are strongest in both (but weakest LRF) while Vasari are weakest in both...now, I'm fine with advent being strongest with both since they have the weakest economy...however, I don't think Vasari should be weakest in both, that is just going to be too crippling...given the expenses of skirmishers, I think Vasari should have the 2nd best LF...since Vasari essentially have the strongest SC, I think they should still have the weakest flak, though a stronger one nevertheless...

Buff the skirmisher to a DPS per FSP of 2.0...that means the DPS would increase from 12 to 14....

Buff the sentinel to a DPS per FSP of about 3.46666...that means the DPS would increase from 16.3333 to 17.33333...this would make it better against SC than it currently is, but the loss of PMs would make it weaker against frigates (though I think the skirmisher and strong SC may make up for it)...

Now, we also have HCs to concern ourselves with...with advent now most likely dominating the frigates, and Vasari losing frigate power badly (kanrak, fighter, and sentinel all nerfed due to LRF nerfs or loss of PMs), I think the enforcer needs a slight buff...nothing major, just a little bit...

I'd say buff the enforcer to a DPS per FSP of 2...that means the DPS would increase from 23 to 24...not big, but it's something...

And then we have the issue of ogrovs vs solanus....now, if you play against the AI, they seem to use these things to great effect...the damage per ship I honestly don't think is the problem...the issue is the cost in both resources and fleet supply (which don't matter to a cheating AI)...I think the solanus needs a buff so that it is at least a good option but the fact that it is expensive I still think should be a major drawback....I suggest keeping the cost the same (so it will be much more expensive than an ogrov) while reducing the fleet supply...this allows a greater potential for damage, but at an extreme cost (so bombers are still better choices in most situations)...

I'd say reduce the solanus's fleet supply from 18 to 14...that changes the DPS per FPS from .83333 to 1.07143...more potential, but still just as expensive...

I'm not set on any of these numbers, but I think they'd be a decent start...

Okay, 13 instead of 14 would still be an improvement...I can go for that...

As for adjudicators...I'd like to not change the combat stats of the unit...would a slight cost reduction and FS reduction be in order?

Also, I've been thinking about it, and I think maybe sentinels and fighters should use wave cannons...TEC have the same situation with their HCs, flak, and fighters using the same weapon...it also would make those expensive wave cannon techs much more useful...pulse beam is like TEC beams, only on a limited number of items, which is fine by me....

Since the weekend is here and I'm sure a lot of people would like to do some testing, there is now a compilation of all 4 min-mods currently in progress...my apologies if it is not complete or the change log is not perfect...I tried to compile different string files and entity manifests as accurately as possible, but I will admit it was a bit rushed so that there would be a compilation for testing this weekend...

The changes in the current version are by no means permanent or complete...it is simply the best effort to have something available that allows all changes to be tested...

You can download the compilation here...

Yeah, imagine what would have happened if I actually put them at 400... if we increase them to 475 that will give even the slowest capitals a 50 speed lead while LRFs should be able to catch up to carriers again, plus actually get from place to place at a somewhat tolerable speed.

Is there anything besides bombers that needs to be changed before the next version? Has anyone tried how the heavy cruiser changes are working?

This whole armor/weapon counter thing is going to be very very difficult to deal with...the biggest part of the issue is that bombers and LRF share the same armor type...if flak or fighters are strengthened against bombers, then LRF becomes even more useless...if flak and fighters are weakened, then bombers become even more powerful...

The early game revolves around a Triad of 4 units (with 4 different armor types), so it is an inherently flawed system to begin with...LRF are clearly a counter to LF, but after that it gets fuzzy...fighters and flak counter LRFs, but flak also counters fighters...so, flak is supposed to counter LRF yet also protect it at the same time??  WTF??

That LFs counter both flak and carriers doesn't help...and then fighters also have to counter bombers, which counter HCs, which semi-counter everything else...so basically, the situation is totally ridiculously complicated...

Let's look at units and their counters....

I'm not going to claim this chart to be perfect...that fighters are a hard counter against bombers is honestly very debatable...nevertheless, I think this chart highlights our problems...the most obvious issue is the lack of symmetry, clearly noticeable around the LRF/bomber area (the most problematic area of all)...it seems that no matter what you do, either these two units become ridiculously powerful (current version of game) or one of them gets totally gimped (current version of mod)...

LRFs are the only unit to have 3 different counters (as Darin noted early)...HCs only have one counter...you could even argue that bombers have no hard counters, just two soft counters...the entire system lacks symmetry, and therefore would be ridiculously hard to balance (and maybe even impossible)...

I really hate to say this, but the current armor changes in place don't solve this issue...they simply replaced one dominant unit (the LRF) with another (the HC)...I honestly don't think the current armor/weapon type system is feasibly balanceable...I hope someone proves me wrong, but I don't think it is possible to balance this unless the armor type of the LRF is changed or the roles of each ship dramatically change...light armor is the only armor type shared by direct combat units (the bomber and LRF), and that one fact is what is hurting our efforts to balance this...

On the bright side, I do think the LRF and bomber reduction against caps is good...as of right now, I feel those two changes alone are good enough...for my own personal use, I am probably going to rework the system (which will involve some dramatic changes)...I'll be willing to share those changes, but they will probably change the game too much and therefore not be good inclusions for this balancing mod...

Trying to balance the current system now makes my head hurt...if someone figures it out, you will be my hero, but until then, I don't know what else to say in regards to this issue....

I would be willing to try both of those suggestions....

I'm not sure reverting HCs back to their original is a good idea. Maybe LRFs vs very heavy was overnerfed, but I don't think just a speed reduction and having more fighters is enough to keep the LRF from being able to give heavies a run for their money. Also HCs are supposed to be a counter to LRFs as well, and in the unmodded game it was clear that they were failing in that task. Also I'm afraid that having fighters be the only viable counter to both units will just make carriers the main combat unit again, which is not something I want to go back to.

I don't mind reducing flak fighter damage, but I don't think that is a sufficient change to help heavy cruisers. Also I never changed HC vs light, it is still at its base 1.5.

Definitely worth trying.  Originally I wasn't sold on reducing HC damage against LF, but it's grown on me a bit and I don't have any objections to it anymore.

LRF were only winning because people had huge swarms built up from the early-game, and they often were busy introducing beneficial support cruisers while you were putting up 5 labs to get heavies.  If you brought an equal command value of HC's you'd beat the LRF no problems.

The counter was there, it was just a little soft.  I'd agree that in 1.19 it's too soft, but with our other changes, the LRF no longer needs such a hard counter and the HC can get away with being a softer counter.

Agreed.

PS - Maybe you should start up a thread for technologies and economic upgrades.  A lot of miscellanious stuff that is simply never useful right now...

Okay, I've been thinking about this some more...to keep things clear, let's just assume I'm starting from scratch...no modifications, no changes, just the original weapon/armor type stats...

In the original game, we had 4 issues:

1)  Capital ships are too vulnerable

2)  LRFs are too powerful

3)  LFs are almost useless

4)  Bombers are too hard to suppress

This resulted in people being over-protective of caps, LRFs dominating the frigates/cruisers, LFs never being built (except early Advent) and bombers being spammed...

This is my thought process on the changes I'm going to suggest...it might be best to read the whole thing in its entirety before you start highlighting text, quoting, and preparing to comment...

Now, as for fixing the first issue...reducing bomber v Cap and LRF v Cap is the obvious and most straightforward answer...

The current version of the mod changes LRF v Cap from .75 to .6 and Bomber v Cap from .75 to .65...conceptually, these two changes are good...now, we really have no idea if those are the numbers we want since Bombers and LRFs are going to see other changes...but suffice to say, let's just assume we want those changes and those numbers are more or less ideal for now...

Now, for the second and third issue...

Here is how things are supposed to work...you start the game with LFs...the counter to these is LRFs, so everyone researches these and builds them as fast as possible...the counter to LRFs is fighters, so people research carriers and build fighters...the counter to fighters is flak, so people research and build flak....the counter to flak is LFs, and by now people probably have some support ships, so there is good incentive to still build LFs...you end up with some decent amounts of all 4 units:  LF, LRF, fighters, and flak...

Here is how things actually work...LRF are a hard counter to LF, so everyone researches LRF and just builds those...fighters and flak are both counters to LRF, so if someone goes pure LRF then you build flak and some fighters...if someone builds only flak and fighters, LF are worth a shot...but eventually, someone with lots of flak and fighters realize they have virtually no offensive potential, so eventually pretty much everyone is building lots of LRF with some flak to counter/protect LRF...both LFs and fighters get slaughtered, so pretty much your only chance to get an upper hand is to build more LRF/flak or to research HCs...

The early triad of units is LF, LRF, and flak...but really, this early "Triad" should be a "Quad" of LF, LRF, fighter, and flak...the problem is, flak both counter LRF and protect LRF, when really all flak should be doing is countering fighters...

So, here's a prudent change: weaken flak v LRF...now, what exactly will this do? 

If flak are weaker against LRF, then the only good counter against LRF will be fighters...this is good, because it forces a player to build the intentional counter to LRF...conceptually, this will create a "Quad" of units where only the appropriate counter will be adequately effective...

However, this change will leave flak very vulnerable to LRF (which in the original game are very good against heavy armor, 2nd only to LFs)...we don't want people using LRF to counter flak, we want people using LF to counter flak...we also want LRF to be weaker in general...

So, the obvious and straightforward solution is to reduce the effectiveness of LRF v heavy armor (flak/carrier/support)...

The current version of the mod reduces LRF v heavy armor from .75 to .60...this seemed to work out fairly well, and until HCs came into play it made LF much more useful (in fact, very useful)...however, the current version of the mod does not reduce flak v LRF...this, combined with HC v LRF makes LRFs pretty much useless...

Here is my suggestion...weaken LRF v heavy armor from .75 to .6 (as mod currently does) but also weaken flak v LRF from .75 to .5...

What does this do?

The game gives you the ability to build LF...so you build some (except maybe Vasari)...you research and build LRF as quickly as possible because you know everyone else started with LF...you see the enemy has a lot of LRF, so you research carriers and build fighters...of course, the enemy does too, and you research and build flak to help protect your LRF from fighters...you also build some more LF in order to help counter the flak and maybe even the carriers (and perhaps some hoshikos by now too)...until HCs come out, there is good reason to have at least some quantity of LF, LRF, flak, and fighters around at all times...

Now for the 4th issue, bombers...and here is where you may be thinking "Well Sel you are dumb because you weakened flak v LRF, and LRF and bombers have the same armor type."  But, what if flak v LRF was weakened yet flak v bombers wasn't...well, I think we may have the solution, and I think it lies within accuracy...

Every weapon type has a base percent chance to hit fighters and bombers (those are two, separate percentage values)...

Now, currently flak (anti-very light) have a 75% chance to hit bombers...now, I just weakened flak v light armor from .75 to .5...that is a reduction of 1/3, so if I increase the % chance to hit bombers by 1/3 I should in theory have reduced flak v LRF while doing nothing to change flak v bombers...a one third increase would put the percent chance to hit bombers at 100% (up from 75%)...therefore, I suggest increasing that percentage from 75% to 100%...this however, does not weaken bombers, but merely keeps them the same...we don't want bombers to just be the same, but to in fact be weaker...

Now, when testing the mod, 2 issues were noticed:

1)  HCs are too dominate

2)  Bombers are too good against fleet (though that fleet was dominated by HCs)

For the first issue, I think a simple reduction in HC v LRF and HC v LF may be in order...I suggest these ratios be changed from 1.5/1.25 (1.2 in mod) to 1.25/1.0...however, we want bombers, not LRF, to be a successful counter to HCs, so LRF v HC should also be reduced from .75 to .55 (already in mod)...

As for the 2nd issue, I don't think anything else should be done for now...HCs have been weakened and therefore their numbers hopefully won't dominate fleet composition...since bombers are most effective against caps (which has been changed) and HCs (which won't be as common), I think bombers may indirectly be weaker...I'm not saying they won't need more nerfing, but I'd like to test out the other changes first...

To summarize everything, I believe these are the best changes (relative to the original game):

• Anti-medium (LRF) v Capital Ship decreased from .75 to .60 (already in mod)
• Anti-very heavy (bomber) v Capital Ship decreased from .75 to .65 (already in mod)
• Anti-medium (LRF) v heavy (flak/support/carrier) decreased from .75 to .60 (already in mod)
• Anti-medium (LRF) v very heavy (HC) decreased from .75 to .55 (already in mod)
• Composite (HC) v light (LRF) decreased from 1.5 to 1.25 (new)
• Composite (HC) v medium (LF) decreased from 1.25 to 1.0 (new)
• Anti-very light (flak) v bomber chance to hit increased from 75% to 100% (new)

If bombers are found to be still too powerful, I'd recommend increasing the chance to hit of fighters v bombers (so LRF aren't affected)...

I'm not saying these suggestions are perfect, but I do believe that conceptually they are what is necessary to foster fleet diversity...