Agreed!

Well-written.

Sorry I just have to point out where I disagree.

Oak and Erebus have minions which do not scale as much as Sedna nor QoT.

At level 10 minions have base:

Spirits : 840 HP, 64 DMG

Nightwalkers : 1130 HP, 38 DMG

Yetis : 1710 HP, 51 DMG

Shamblers : 675 HP, 30 DMG

In addition to this Yetis have Heavy Armour (same as Giants). Shamblers have 2.5 Radius damage.

Sedna and QoT can also buff their minions with skills.

Qot has compost which can add 14 DMG and 360 HP to base and Entourage which adds 750 and 30 DMG.

Sedna has Magnificant Presence +200 HP and +15% Attack speed and Healing Wind 2, which gives them +24 HP/sec.

So Yetis can be 1910 HP, with 24 HPs regen and +15% attack speed.

Shamblers can be 1785 HP with 74 DMG.

Shamblers are also ranged, meaning they do not suffer from pathing problems.

Yes, they are still weaker than 10 minions combined, however, they are far sturdier and less vulnerable to AoE than Oak or Erebus.

This sentence makes no sense, you are saying that one DG is gimped because they have to rely on minions too much, yet you say that another DG needs to rely on their minions more. You would just end up doing the same, but the other way around.

I would argue that QoT actually has great minions and a great supporting skill tree. The problem is that most player don't know how to use that and write it off. I have played minion based QoT a lot and it is a lot of fun and most probably her most powerful build.

Sedna is indeed gimped with her minions, however, this is mainly due to the fact that Yetis are dam slow and stupid. Pumped up they are great building smashers, but they are poor at taking down DGs and spend more time hitting grunts.

A big factor you haven't mentioned is that both Erebus and Oak have a snare, this improves their minions a great deal, as DGs will have trouble running away. Part of the problem of Sedna and QoT is that they cannot snare and so a DG can easily get away, especially as their minions are slower.

Also, Spirits have no pathing problems, furthering their ability to chase down DGs, Nightcrawlers are smaller and have less pathing issues.

I don't think QoT needs to be changed apart from a slight decrease in the casting of shamblers, this is killer, especially at early levels. I would also possibly add that she should have 6 shamblers instead of 4.

Sedna needs her Yetis to either be ranged or the ability to go through creeps. Possibly change wild swings so that it knocks creeps out of the way, also make it a lower end skill, maybe after counter healing. The mana cost needs to be dramatically reduced for Yetis too. She has plenty of skills that synergize with Yetis, she doesn't need anything else, that is what makes QoT unique. I would also buff their HP and DMG at later levels up a little more.

I don't disagree with most of your analysis, but I do disagree with the end conclusion. QoT is an interesting DG to play, with great minion based skills. Sedna has more immediately powerful assassin build type skills, she is let down by having immensely stupid minions.

excellant post. I want a change in the yeti's and shamblers to make them more of option. Oak and erebus are the only viable minion users for the reasons stated in this post.

good post. i agree with all your points.  

I played a few mean minion QoT's recently...

Seanner, you are kinda rambling, but let me try to pull the points you were making out of that post:

Sedna can get 4 yeti's with 3 skill points, Oak can get 7 spirits: This is really a bad comparison.  Each of those yeti's costs a bankload of mana, and re-summoning them on the battlefield is both time consuming and not horribly cost effective.

Idol Minions make the percentage less in favor: Well, we aren't really talking about percentages per se, and while in 'theory' you could also have a full rack of idol minions... this is not really a good strategy for the most part.

Sedna has strong health regen, is good enough already: You don't help your case by citing ridiculous numbers (9.2 speed and 300 hps). And we aren't arguing here whether or not she is a good Demigod... just that it never makes sense to get Yeti's with her, and the reasons behind our decision. I am not in this discussion arguing that Oak is too good, or Sedna too weak.

Something about being fairly commital of oak and his skill points: I made a skill point per skill point comparison here.  If you want to see commitment, try making good use out of Mulch Shambler.

Hit points are not more effective accross multiple minions, due to AoE: A large percentage of the game is not played with AoE.  Yes, some effects do it very effectively, but even then once you are past the AoE Cap... that is the amount of AoE damage someone is likely to do, all the extra hp are still relevant. There are a multitude of non AoE sources you regularly encounter, from grunts, to towers (especially rooks) to basic auto attacks.

A Queen of Thorns using a shambler build is very powerful. She can out dps many other demigods, including assassins, and has strong staying power thanks to munch. If you have a full set of minions, including those from idols, and you get a spike debuff onto an enemy demigod attack you in 1v1, you can rip him apart in seconds.

However, killing demigods with such a build is difficult, since the burst is low, and her opponent can simply run away.

Many players just plain disregard minion builds, because their strengths are less obvious. And perhaps a bit less fun.

But in my opinion the original poster is right in his assertions that minion builds could be a bit stronger, especially Sedna's.

They have lots of health and are being passively healed by priests and a strong aura.  They aren't supposed to die.  Worst case, they die, you resummon at a crystal when you buy items/die/whatever.  If an enemy tries to focus fire a yeti you just focus fire him and that battle will be very one sided..  If some sort of situation presents itself where your minions aren't working, you stop getting them.  Yetis are one option.

Same reason maxing out spirits and morale and minion items isn't the best strategy.  Minions are counterable.  The whole idea here is that Oak's extra minions either just end up extra countered (more AoE damage/snare/attack debuff) or the enemy isn't bothering to counter, in which case buying idols makes sense.  Regardless of exact minion numbers, more minions means gloves and armor are more effective you are correct, just as they are less effective on Regulus.  I could argue that certain items work better on Regulus than they do on Oak, but this does not mean that Oak should be buffed.  Following this logic out, every character is too weak and too strong because they are different from each other.

That was actually 92 speed, not 9.2.  It was intentionally an exaggeration because at end game it may as well be that high.  Anyway, if you aren't discussing the overall strength's and weaknesses of the DGs, you are wasting time...I will argue that all of the assassins need way better minions.  And Oak's snipe and mine throw suck, btw.

Are not free health potions good to have?  In a perfect situation, mulch surpasses bite when the AoE hits a few things.

Completely wrong..when you have 10 spirits with 800 health, how do they die?  One at a time from TB casting fireball at them as fast as he can?  Has anyone ever had their minions get chain killed one at a time?  You can't seriously think that +200 hp on 10 spirits gives you 2k health in the same way that giving a DG 2k health gives the DG 2k health.  First, a particular spirit only has 200 more hp.  Second, nobody and no AI is focus firing a spirit, so that "2k buff" is never going to be helpful in that manner.  UB isn't going to hit wand of speed, rush in, and start pounding away at spirits one at a time.  Then he'll get to the very last 10th and final spirit, barely about to kill it, you'll micro it away saying, "Thank god I got that health upgrade!"  Actually by that point it's probably the 29th spirit as they keep getting resummoned with wards everywhere.  And no, that doesn't mean you have 5.8k extra health of spirits for him to chew through because he's not stupid enough to do that.  It means your spirit has 200 more hp, just like a shambler would have.

Ooze would destroy the spirits, and it will destroy all other minions as well, UB is a poor example of someone who would have difficulty countering a minion build.

I play Sedna a lot, I'm told I'm a bit of a bitch to play against, and I can tell you that Yetis are completely worthless compared to the other skills you need to stay alive against good opposition. Sedna does very little damage, but with two strong interrupts, a giant heal, and good passive regen you can stay at the front and take hits while your allies wreak havoc. Anyone who is staying at the back and "supporting" is doing it wrong. And this talk of "healing yetis"...WHAT??? How about you heal your allied player, wouldn't that be more useful? I'm pretty sure Rook does more damage than a Yeti.

Not sure what HP/S regen you're getting, but my builds are nowhere near 300, the game is over long before that. I take some grace, some wind, botf, narmoths...gives in the region of 70 HP/S in the mid game.

As has been pointed out, Yetis cost a lot of mana, can't close the gap on enemy characters, don't deal a huge amount of damage when they do, suffer pathfinding issues, and mean you need to sacrifice at least one skillpoint in something else. So you can down towers with them...you can down towers with anything, towers just take a concerted push by your team, and you shouldn't be doing it alone anyway, certainly not with Yetis.

One skillpoint is the difference between an 800HP and a 600HP pounce, or a 900HP + debuff removal vs a 600HP heal. Or an extra second of Silence. I'm not going to speculatively put one point into yetis on the off chance that my opponent is braindead and doesn't know how to deal with them. To make yetis an attractive option they need to be able to compete with those three skills, and I honestly can't see how that's going to happen without changing the focus of yetis from doing damage to something else (eg healing or buffing others).

In short, I don't take Sedna as a DPS machine, you have other team members for that, her minions should reflect that role and compliment it rather than trying to make up for her low DPS. Give me more summonable priests or something.

800 vs 600 dmg pounce isn't all that much of a difference though..it has a poor range and functions better as an interrupt.  A 400 damage pounce is just as good vs hammer rook for example.  Silence and pounce prevents anything worse than one slam which gets insta half healed by a priest plus massive aura regen, meanwhile rook gets beatdown by mass minions.

Let's compare higher pounce (say 800 vs 400) to yetis:

7 attacks x2 yetis at 30 damage = 420 damage..sure 7 attacks takes more time but they will be doing more damage with items and you will have saved a skill point.  You can kite rook and avoid melee while your minions attack..in fact the move speed differences (that you can increase with that skill point) pretty much ensure you can literally run a circle around rook as she dies.  Also, higher pounce costs higher mana mid-fight as opposed to yetis that should've already been summoned at a crystal.  The thing is that each skill point requires more and more mana to use..you can't go around silence/pounce/heal/pounce/... all game without stacking mana.  When people get better at surviving it will turn more and more into wars of attrition.  Less mana per skill and more free damage and better health and speed items will rule the day (items purchased with money saved by not getting mana items).

Even if one points out that yetis are still the weakest, are they too weak?  This is what happens when they get buffed.  People use them, they beat down on players and towers alike, then everyone complains nerf yetis because when I attack Sedna she just runs away and heals or the yetis start killing me and I get pounced and silenced man it's so lame wtf f-u gpg.  They are too weak because they dare not be any stronger..

I still don't think the metagame has reached the point where people are learning to not die on their own and use the 3/4 generals heal/shield/invincibility (4/4 including mist) and items perfectly to basically never die in a team battle vs primitive and obvious lolnuke tactics.  In this future world of Demigod, anything you can do beyond simple nuking will become an advantage.  The exception being a hypothetical 20v20, because the only valid tactic is for everyone to pick Regulus, unless perhaps the cooldown is too long vs the number of spirits 20 Oaks could get up to attack the citadel...I don't know.  I guess the map size would come into play here.  So even in this fantasy land of 20 Reguluseseses, I can't guarantee the usefulness of maxing snipe over having more minions!

That extra 200 damage from 1 point of Pounce every !4-6 seconds is definitely more than you'll ever get from your Yetis...who cannot interrupt, and who die, and who cannot kill fleeing DGs.