But did Job really know he'll see them again? By the arguments within the bible itself, Heaven is a notoriously difficult place to get into, nor is Jobs virtue inherently virtue they themselves bear. From a human perspective, yes, it is easy to say "Death can come at any time, and that's just how it works", but in this case God literally, intentionally arranged for their deaths, to prove that Job is great. I still can't see why an omnipotent god would feel he would have to prove anything to anyone, but he does anyway in Job.

I don't take it literally because it is from a set of oral traditions passed down from generation to generation, and I see no reason to take group x's oral stories as true when group y has stories too. To me it holds as much weight as Greek myth (though funnily enough the entire Prometheus story is in some ways a humanist story, where intellect is liberating, not damning).

And thank you I'd say I'm more pleased than I am proud; to me it means the real hard work is still to come.

so you're saying that intellect in the scriptures is damning? 

Where are you getting that from? 

Did you not know that Paul who wrote almost the whole NT was one of the most learned man of his time?  How about Moses?  He was educated in the best of the Egyptian schools.  He too was very learned and wrote the first five books of the OT called the Torah. 

Also, did you not know the first commandment is to love God with our whole heart, MIND and soul? 

No, God doesn't wish for us to leave out intellect at the door.  But he also doesn't say we have to be a brainiac to believe in him either.  He made the gospel so simple a child can understand, but he left behind his relevation so deep that a Professor can spend a lifetime searching it out.   Something for everyone. 

Sometimes tho, our intellect can get in the way.  We can be so shiny smart we have no common sense.  Sometimes the smarter we get the stupider we get as well.   Seen that a whole bunch around me for years. 

Of course I'm saying intellect in the scripture is worth damning. The very tree god told adam and eve not to eat from was the tree of knowledge. That was the start of it all. There is, through history and in present day as well, distinctly anti-intellectual movements within many religious communities. Consider, even, how many peoples counter to evolution is that it's "just" a theory. Putting aside the fact that theory doesn't mean what these people think it means, I wonder what they think of things such as germ theory.

...And yes, the Bible is (partially) based on oral histories. The Old Testament specifically.

As an aside, would you know off-hand why so many people in the States are so gung-ho for home schooling?  This has always perplexed me. The majority of pro-home schooling people I've encountered are religiously rooted, yet if I had to comment on the weaknesses of current North American education (as both Canadian and American systems suffer from many of the same issues, although home schooling movements here in the north are much fewer in number), it would be that political and science education is utterly abysmal (as witnessed both by the number of people, even within my own government, who didn't understand or intentionally misrepresented the legality of the events of late last year, and the fact that one individual in my biology class genuinely believed that all women held one less set of ribs; while some people do have one extra or one less pair of ribs, this is unrelated to gender and is an anomaly). I find it absolutely terrifying how many people to this day take astrology seriously, even when it clashes with their professed faith, for example.

I think you were wise in saying "professed" faith because that's all it might be.  I have yet in my years of ministry come into contact with one born again believer who takes astrology seriously.  I think any who do either have a very weak faith not understanding the diff between the two or have made a choice of astrology over their "professed" faith. 

Because the schools are teaching the kids more about humanism and against Christianity  than ever before.  I'm still in my 40's.  When I was a child we sang songs in school like God Bless America,, When the Saint's Go Marching In etc.  Everyday we sang some sort of song that invoked God.  Christmas time was all about Christ and his birth and the celebrations were all about the baby Jesus.  When my parents and grandparents went to school they had a bible reading every morning as well as prayer.  I remember times of silence and an occasional prayer or invocation at certain events like graduations and such. 

Our schools were all about the bible and the heritage of Christianity until about the 1960's when it all started to unwavel.  When the public schools first got started bible reading was part of their learning.  Their first reading primers came straight out of the bible.   I've seen these old primers.  In the 1960's they took prayer out of school and then the schools started to take more and more Christian based teachings out.  Little bit by little bit things started to change and not for the better in my opinion.  If I were raising kids today, home schooling is the only way to be able to teach with freedom.  The teachers are NOT allowed to even talk about God anymore.  They can lose their jobs. 

Today, that's all been wiped out and instead replaced with heavy doses of evolution and humanism and looking at the kids today, I don't think that's been beneficial one iota.    When my sons went to H.S. they encountered alot of Christian bashing from the teachers even.  What a difference 20 years makes.  So about 20 years or so ago, home schooling started to take hold.   When my eldest was in kindergarten there were about 400 homeschoolers in our state.  By the time he graduated at 17 there were about 4,000.    I'm sure today, that's just exploded even more. 

........................

"I think you were wise in saying "professed" faith because that's all it might be.  I have yet in my years of ministry come into contact with one born again believer who takes astrology seriously.  I think any who do either have a very weak faith not understanding the diff between the two or have made a choice of astrology over their "professed" faith. "

..............everything has a place.....but for the unready.... that point has not been reached....most who can not see the

line..........should start there trainning at THe Beginning.... so as to have a level surface in which to

draft......http://mind.impulsedriven.net                      for what is serious should be taking seriously.......but not out of context...

If you want to start at the beginning, start here:

http://web.mac.com/ajbrehm/Home/Blog/Entries/2009/7/27_One.html

(Sorry, KFC. I was thinking whether I should join the discussion but couldn't figure out whether the atheists even understand the purpose of faith. I feared if I brought up, for example, the power of prayer as I had in my article on Dietrich Bonhoeffer, they wouldn't understand anyway.)

......or do you only begin at faith?........

what are you trying to say?  Faith leads to the beginning of what? 

I agree.  I'm having a hard time understanding his comments as well as them being annoyed by his method of typing.  I'm just not getting his point at all. 

.........Everything has a place........

Bless

Why do you think most books are not written with text ............ interrupted by lots of dots?

If he is a Bahai, he might enjoy this:

http://gallery.me.com/ajbrehm#100035/Bahai&bgcolor=black

It's a collage I did from pictures I took in Haifa. You know I am a big fan of the city of Haifa.

Why? 

You didn't answer my question.   Let your yes be yes and your no, no. 

The only I AM that I recognize is the God of the Jews and Christians.  He is the great I AM.  He is the only one that offers true salvation. 

well then, I guess we're done then. 

nope.

Haifa has a main street leading from the water directly towards the entrance to the Bahai Temple grounds. I'll post pictures of the street later this week.

(For the moment this might do: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/1898143)

From this street other paths lead to the German Colony and other parts of the city. There are many decent restaurant in that street too.The impression it creates when you stand there cannot be described, not in pictures either.

The city is a holy city of the Bahai and an oddity since there are almost no Bahai living in the city. (The Bahai are an Iranian sect not welcome in Iran but very welcome and respected in Israel.)

Haifa is 10% Arab. This is regretable, but when in 1948 Haifa's mayor asked the Arab population (40% at the time) not to abandon the Jews to certain death and to stay and defend the city against the Syrian invaders, most of the local Arabs left. But some stayed and defended the city and the city survived the attack. Haifa is one of the places where the miracle was most evident. Druze, Bedouin and many Christians in the area stayed and fought.

Today there are many excellent Arab and Lebanese restaurants in the city, especially since Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon and many Lebanese Christians fled to Israel fearing the "resistance". There is a sizable Ethiopian community there as well.

Haifa has a somewhat famous university and a world-famous institute of technology. The city is home to software labs of Microsoft and Google and Intel research (the Core 2 chips now used in almost all PCs and all Macs sold were designed there).

Haifa is secular, but not nearly as secular and liberal as Tel Aviv and certainly not as religious as Jerusalem. It's a "normal" city, which is rare in Israel. The weekend is not total peace and quiet like in Jerusalem but it is still a weekend unlike in Tel Aviv. People go to synagogue and church but are not fanatics about it. And Haifa has public transportation running on Shabbat. There is even a very short underground metro.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmelit

Haifa is connected to the Israel railroad system and the train to Tel Aviv takes an hour or so. Connections to Jerusalem are via Tel Aviv and Beit Shemesh.

The train ride to Jerusalem: http://web.mac.com/ajbrehm/Resources/Haifa2Jerusalem.html

There are also two shopping malls in Haifa (shopping malls in Israel are an experience). Haifa mall and the "Grand Canyon" ("canyon" means "shopping mall" in Hebrew).

Actually, I just found a gallery on my homepage. It contains a few pictures of Haifa.

http://gallery.me.com/ajbrehm#100051&bgcolor=black&view=grid

Anyway, it's a fantastic city and it's definitely where I will retire. I was just there a few weeks ago and will definitely return early next year (ran out of money now, otherwise I'd go there in a few weeks).