It's my belief/opinion, that the Bible...even if you're a dyed in red Christian, is a starting point and shouldn't be taken as literally as it is.

FIrst off I don't have any holy men.  I have the word of God and that is my only guide.  Lula's RCC is built upon both the good book and tradition and that's where we get into hot debates.  I'm not interested in the RCC traditions any more than Christ was interested in the Pharisees traditions. 

It's not about my path or Lula's path.  It's about Christ's path.  He said he was the only way, truth and life.  He backed up his words with deeds and actions.  It comes down to do you believe him or not?  Nobody else has ever done what he did and continues to do in the hearts and minds of people today....like mine for instance.  I'm eternally grateful for what he has done in my life.  That's why now I die to myself and live for him.  It's no longer my life but His life that I care about.  I realize now it's not about me and it never really was about me. 

As far as other religions, Christianity stands out.  All other religions are works based, including the RCC but to follow Christ is about a relationship not a religion.  It has never been about religion.  Religion is man centered and man created.  There is nothing but faith in Christ that brings eternal life.  Our works are important but they do not save us.  We were saved to do good works but were not saved by our good works.  Many groups out there are having you working for your salvation and are guilt based.  I can't tell you how many times I've heard a priest tell a young mother her infant  child went to hell because he wasn't baptized.  That's fear and guilt that Christ would never be happy with. 

Well there's more to it than that, just like there was more to Elisha than you thought as well.  God replaced everything twofold and blessed Job abundantly.  Remember God knew beforehand exactly what Job was made of.  He knew Job could handle this testing.  Not many could handle the life of Job but God knew he could because God knew how strong his faith in Him was. 

BTW his wife was not killed.  See how you're making an assumption without knowing all the facts?  That's why you need to read the book or at least hold your opinion on it until you have a better understanding of it.  Also the devil is our accuser.  He accused Job before God saying Job wasn't worth his salt if God took off the hedge of protection.  So God wanting to prove (to us and Job) that Job's faith was strong and sure. He told Satan he would allow Satan to have his way with Job under certain conditions.  Job is a great book of one while going thru trials and tribulations kept his faith in God no matter what.   

Well all Christians are called to be evangelists to some degree because we are told to "go and tell."  So yes, somewhat, although my gift I believe, from God is teaching and discernment.  I love to teach and I see so many that have the wrong perception of God so I guess that keeps me busy. 

I figured you may have been  Eastern Orthodox but wasn't sure.   I was a RC and I know that there is persecution enough to go all around.  We had a pastor's wife who was spit on by a nun because she was Baptist.  This was in Poland.  The Poland RCC is very very powerful and they have very strict rules and taxes against Baptist churches there or any other non RCC.   Most of the real estate is owned by the RCC and the people in powerful positions are usually RCC even the judges.  If they leave the church they are expected to step down from these positions.   My husband has been there to preach and teach.  He met some town leaders who were sneaking to the Baptist Church not wanting the RCC to find out because they seriously can lose their jobs. 

The actions of one person does not reflect the general opinion of the vatican towards reform churches. But yea, poland is deepy rooted in catholicism. My mother is from croatia, and everybody there is catholic as well. They are pretty pious there now because itwas forbidden while everything was still yugoslawia. People that went to church risked repercussions. One thing I find good about the RCC is the infrastructure it has with caritas. After the war started in 1990 my parents started organizing humanitarian aid transports for the refugees that fled from the fighting or were driven off their land. It was only possible because they worked together with caritas - you would not believe how complicated making a transport like that happen was back then, just a few years after the fall of communism. You needed official papers for all the border crossings. It is not possible to just collect things and bring them to the people in need, buroucracy has to be correct or heaven help! They still organize smaller ones these days because there are still alot of refugees in croatia that can't go back due to the complicated and messed up situation in Bosnia. Bureaucracy and the partition of the land into 3 zones make it difficult. The priest they work together with and some nuns in a small convent do amazing work, they help so many people regardless of their ethnicity or religion. They always go to the same citiy these days, Slavonski Brod in the region of slavonia. The ground is very fertile there and that is the only thing keeping the population alive. All industry was destroyed in the civil war, no new investors, high unemployment rate and everything is very expensive. So basically, everybody has their own garden, a few animals if they can manage like chicken, maybe a cow and a few pigs - very rural. Most people work as seasonal harvest helpers in Germany and other countries in the EU - backbreaking work for very little money but that is the money they have to do things like repearing something on the house or investing in a tractor etc. I think my parents were donated a few tractors once from a farmer who had bought new ones - they were really happy when that arrived. Without caritas none of this had been possible.

I grew up with the chaos surrounding continous donations from people all over the region or picking up complete households. My parents' house resembled a warehouse quite often. We even bought old military  field ambulances, unimogs etc from the german army once and took them down there after painting them white.

My mom was and is very nationalistic when it comes to croatia and not really happy about former sec of state james baker or Clinton because of their policy regarding croatia. Back then the US would have rather seen one stable state (yugoslavia) instead of unstable region. If croatia would remain in the political system of yugoslavia then the region would be stable - so Croatia did not really get all that much support when they declared themselves independant and fought for their freedom.

One thing to keep in mind when talking about the RCC in Europe or the church in general before the reformation in the 15th and 16th century I suppose is its long tradition and history one the one hand and the intricate relationship between political power and church hierarchy on the other.

The reason why the RCC "controls everything" in Poland as you put it is most likely due to the fact that the RCC has a couple century long tradition. Poland and Lithuania used to be a really huge and powerful catholic empire before it was split up and shared between Prussia, Austria Hungary (Habsburg dynasty) and Russia. They even had a sort of democratic aristocratic constitution. More than 20% of the population used to be aristocratic in Poland in that time.

That church-tradition in Europe has shaped many things, and I would say that most of our moral values that can be found in human rights for example and that even atheists use like being caritative and so forth developed in that christian tradition. It is not something that is shaken off easily and has left recognizable tracks in society and history, many of which are decidedly negative or questionable, no doubt. 

For example, Bavaria is very catholic and ultra conservative, especially when it comes to moral values. Having a baby when not married and living in a small village could mark you as a social outcast and heaven forbid if you are gay or otherwise act out of the norm of the acceptable. People are proud of their tradition, narrowminded and generally stuck up in that regard.

Personally, I was never told that I would go to hell if I did this or that or anything like that. But I have a good friend who is half irish and her mom said that the catholic church in Ireland was pretty horrible, especially to orphans and single mothers. The priests had way too much power and ruled by fear.

This is true.  Church and politics in bed together.  It's still like that in some places. 

have you heard the news lately over there? It's been all over the print news here.  The RCC is in deep trouble for many abuses regarding orphanages that go way back to the turn of the 19th century.  Thousands are speaking out now about the emotional, physical and sexual abuse at the hands of the priests and nuns to these orphans.  18 Catholic orders are in question as many orphanages were targeted by these RCC abuses.

I agree.  Where is the forgiveness that Christ offers?  This is a child who was a victim.  The man should be dealth with, not the child.  Nine years old!  I can't even imagine this. 

This is exactly what Christ went up against with the Pharisees.  Christ went against their traditions because they had no scriptural support.....like washing their hands ceremoniously before they ate.  They mocked him for not doing this.  It was a grave sin not to do so.  God says nothing about this in his OT law but they made their own rules that superceded God's rules. 

I wouldn't go so far as to say that but I can understand why he would.  Taking weapons away is the first order of business if you want control over a people.  Make them defenseless. 

I'm on your friend's side here.  I've never owned a weapon nor used one myself.  But I believe we should protect our freedoms fiercely.  It seems like day to day we are losing them more and more. 

As a Christian I would love to see all weapons done away with and they will be as promised when he comes back.  But as a human being living in a fallen world, I can see how this would never happen until then. 

and I think that's a good thing really.  As the world gets further and further away from God there should be a larger and larger gap between the two cultures.  On one side you have the world culture with their humanistic thinking and on the other side you have those who have traditionally looked to God, not man for answers.  Jesus said he did not come to unite but to divide.  While he wishes unity for believers he calls us to be different from the world.  He calls us to follow him not man. 

Jesus was a polarizer if there ever was and he was killed for it.  John the Baptist was as well.  So weren't the disciples.  Every single one of them was martyred for their faith but one. 

 First God sent his prophets and messengers to warn the people.  When that didn't work, he sent his son.  They killed him just like the parable goes about the vineyard owner who sent his servants and then his son to the unruly tenants.  One day we will all answer for what we did with his son.  Either we loved him or we crucified him.  Either we cursed him or called  upon him.    We are either for him or against him.  There is no inbetween.  There is no fence straddling. 

UTEMIA posts:

I've been following this sad case over the last few months. The liberal news outlets around the world are criticizing the Church and specifically the archbishop for the excommunications.

Canon 1398 states that "A person who actually procures an abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication." This means the girl-mother and the doctors involved in procuring the abortion brought about their own (automatic) excommunication.  The Archbishop the excommunication was upholding the Moral law and the Fifth Commandment of Almighty God which forbids the murder of the twins ever before Canoncial law was set to automatically excommunicate those who are directly involved.

Under no circumstances, even in the hard case of a 9 year old pregnant with twins, can the Church change God's absolute laws for she would cease to be "the Church" Our Lord Jesus Christ founded the Church with St.Peter as her first earthly head.  St.Matt. 16:16-20. Remember too, He gave St.Peter and thus his successors (the Book of Acts) the keys to the kingdom and His authority to bind and loose on earth shall be bound in heaven.  To be for abortion under any circumstances, would violate the Magesterium of the Church. The Archbishop, like it or not, was dutifully bound to issue the penalty of excommunication.  

So your Mom and I are in agreement on this one. Maybe she had Hebrews 13:17 in mind, "Obey your prelates and be subject to them. For they watch over your souls as they must give account; that they might do this with joy, and not with grief; for this is would be unprofitable for you."

Turns out, the doctors were not in a moral crossroads. On the contrary, under the cover of "legality", they performed with full knowledge the barbarous act of abortion killing two babies. The national media reported they said they did what they are "used to doing with great pride."  Sounds like we have Catholic doctors performing abortion and it finally caught up with them in this case. If they want to continue practicing the evil of abortion, they are no longer able to be Catholic doing it.

Also turns out that for every one who'll declare the girl's life was in danger as a result of the pregnancy, it has been equally reported that the hospital said her life was not in danger, and moreover, a medical specialist opined that the child and the doctors could have safely delivered the twin babies via caesarean section.

St.Matt.16:16-19 tells us what the Church binds; the Church can loose....the excommunications can be lifted. 

KFC POSTS:

 KFC, it really pains me that you have such a sorry misconception about Sacred Tradition and keep repeating this nonsense. The CC Sacred Tradition and Canon Law has never once made any rules that superceded God's rules...as you can see here in this tragic example, the Church through Canon Law upheld God's commandment, "Thou shalt not kill".

As far as bringing up the Pharisees trying to slam Tradition, remember, it's the Protest-ants who took up with following the Jabneh Pharisees. The unbelieving Pharisees after going against Christ went against His, one, holy, (Infant) Catholic and Apostolic Church whose members were given the mission to go, preach and teach all that He commanded.  

I know. However, not loving Sacred Tradition and misrepresenting it by comparing it to the Pharisees are two different things.

St.John 20:30, "Many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book."

21:25, "And there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written everyone, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written." 

These passages tell us the Holy Bible isn't all there is to Almighty God's sacred revelation...it is incomplete....it needs something else to supplement it; i.e. Sacred Tradition.

Yet,through Apostolic Succession, this Tradition is confirmed by 2 Thess. 2:15, "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word or by epistle." 2Tim. 2:2, "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also."

OK..no problem. This is your opinion on the matter but you advanced your opinion by slamming Sacred Tradition as though it is Pharisitical in nature when it is nothing of the sort.

The CC, like her Founder, condemns the taking of innocent life. Period.

Had those "Catholic" parents and doctors acted with the Church and according to her Founder's teachings, the girl would have been spared the killing act of abortion and all the trauma and pathology that is sure to follow.

As I read the reports at the time of the abortion, the girl was OK as far as the pregnancy was concerned. Whether or not the pregnancy would have killed her is moot.  The point is the doctors should have taken the twins by Caesarian section and had they survived, the family could have given them to adoption. That would have been a win win situation. Had they died, at least every one involved knew they did the best they could for all concerned. The parents, the doctors and the girl can live with a clear conscience with that.

Rape is a very evil and violent crime and we must have the utmost of compassion for those victims, but we don't solve it by committing another violent act. After all, the unborn twins had nothing to do with the rape at all. Two wrongs don't make a right. When a rape occurs, why must the child in the womb gets the death penalty?

And who knows what our Lord had in store for the lives of these twins had they been allowed to live and enjoy all of life's choices?

and if God wanted this revealed he would have. He gave us what we needed.   This is no excuse for RCC tradition.  This is taking the scripture out of context and making tradition out of nothing.....just like the Pharisees did.  Christ called them on it many times.  I'm doing the same here. 

No.   That's scary.  You're going to tell God that his revelation to us is incomplete?  Good luck with that.  The bible says both in the OT and the NT for good measure that if you add or take away from the book you will be in serious trouble. 

God would never ever leave us here with the word of man like that. The bible fully contradicts such nonesense.  The word of man supplementing the Word of God????  Are you kidding????   He knows how man corrupts everything he touches and the tongue has some serious issues.  To me it reminds me of the childish game called gossip.  And you know the outcome of that don't you? 

I absolutely see the Pharisees when I think about the RCC and their traditions and have so since I was a kid.  I can't see any diff.  They are very comparable. 

Hate to tell you Lula but Catholics are having abortions all over the place.  I've known alot of Catholics who go for abortions.  The only diff is the world doesn't know because they quietly go and take care of the problem.  I'll bet you dollars to donuts you sit next to one or two every week when you go to church. 

If a woman is raped and becomes pregnant she is out of luck so to speak. Either she is pregnant while not married, which is frowned upon in a lot of places still, or she has a child out of wedlock which is sin in most cultures and religon. This does not mention the traumatic experience, the humiliation, shame and also guilt that many feel. It is a very difficult situation and no easy solution is possible. If they abort they are not only a sinner once because they had a child out of wedlock but twice because they killed. It is no wonder why many despair and do not find a good solution. But rape is a extreme scenario.

I find it difficult to classify people into religious denominations and then automatically assume a certain sort of behaviour. (Except for some really weird cults and sects that indoctrinate and brainwash their followers that is) I am sure there are evangelical christians who have had abortions as well. This is what I mean with polarizing. Catholics and the Catholic Church in the Vatican are not synonymes either. Everybody is still a individual person after all who makes individual choices. We are not living in a collective.

There was a huge debate about this a few years ago in regard to pregnancy counsel offered by the catholic church in germany. German criminal law requires going to this counsel if you want to have a penalty free abortion. In this counseling they try to show other options that are available, talk about available financial aid and and the emotional situation those woman are in their life right now, adoption and so forth - the general reasoning behind that is to dissuade the woman from having an abortion. The catholic church in Germany had been offering this counsel and attending it could be used as "have a penalty free abortion" card. That is why the vatican prohibited it. There are other organizations who offer this though, also the protestant church.

My friend from Ireland, her mum has 8 or 9 siblings, they were very poor and barely survived. Another baby was a problem and could make survival problematic as there was already not enough to go around. She said that it was a reality that men wanted to consumate their marriage but that children could not be always supported. Some nuns helped out with herbs and advice on how to end a pregnancy. Abortion does not have to happen in a clinic after all.. wise woman were a necessity in societies that were largely poor and were families had more children than they could support.

I think the pregnancy counsel the catholic church offered was generally a good thing, even though using it as a get an abortion for free card was wrong. But counsel in general is very good, and I read that several states in the US have also made it a requirement before having an abortion. Many woman don't even know that they have other options, so it is good to show them that their situation does not have to be totally hopeless. Instead of condemning them one should show that there are other ways, adoption for example.

ok, if I don't see it, send me a link.  I'll come over.  I enjoy our conversations.  I think you have very good questions. 

congratulations!!!!   Well done.  You should be proud.  I'm sure you are quite busy. 

I understand but you're looking at this from a physical standpoint not a spiritual one.  The whole reason Job was picked for this duty in the first place was because he was a spiritual giant.  He could and did take it exactly as God said he would.  God knew him inside and knew he was able to withstand this tragedy above all others.  God never gives us more than we can handle....sometimes we take on more than we can handle but he never dishes it out. 

Job understood he would see his children later.  He understood God had them in his care.  He also knew, as I do, that our children are not ours to keep.  We are just managers of them.  They don't belong to us.   We will be judged according to how we brought them up and what we did with them, much like the parable of the talents.  What did we do with what God gave us and that includes our children.  It's a job and responsiblilty we are to take seriously. 

I do take this story as literal, because I don't see any reason not to.  It's not unreasonable to do so.