The thread's intent was to discuss Rebellion techs as demonstrated by
the things you posted for the others. You violated this when you came to the Vasari by your mention of phase stabilizers.
Recall that the Vasari are the mobility race in the game and have been since vanilla. That is a significant part of their
theme. Also recall that for the cost and fleet supply, their ships are inefficient.
Also, you referred to The Maw as a "fear-me" tech, but honestly, it's not even that good. It's an L6 on the titan that
otherwise sucks at combat and even then, only affects frigates. If you see an L5 Vorastra and don't begin the transition
to capitals, that's your own fault.
Also, had you properly been doing this and including all "fear me" techs/abilities, your list would have looked something
like this...
Agreed, Vasari are the mobility race since the beginning. It was always deadly and now with the new abilities is even more so.
You do realize that an Level 6 VL Titan basically removes frigates from the game? You have to retreat them the moment he is phase jumping to your position, otherwise they are going to be history. You should know that frigates are more important than capital ships in a game against a human opponent. Sure, build captital ships when the hostile titan is approaching level 6. And then? Are you believing that your new capital ships are a good counter to an more experienced vasari capital fleet? Not to mention that there is nothing that stops the Vasari for adding a few support frigates of his own. Advent relying heavily on fleet synergy are at a certain disadvantage when forced to fight without the support of their frigates.
Of course there are titans that do better in general combat, but it still isnt so difficult to rank the Vorastra up. Thanks to micro phase jump you can savely retreat it far later than any other titan in this game. And it still has some descent firepower. Ranking up an Ankylon is far more time consuming.
TL: Twin Fortresses, Dual BRB, Pervasive Economy, Supply Pact, Inspire and Impair, Group Shield
TR: TAR, Snipe, Scattershot, BRB, Pervasive Economy, Supply Pact
AL: Ancient Retribution, Suppression Aura+Vertigo+Lethargy
AR: WotS, Chastic Burst+Malice
VL: STTC, Energetic Pulse Charging, Accelerated Wave Chargin, Shipboard Labs, phase stabilizers, enhanced RA, Kostura
VR: Armor Restoration, Shared Shield Technology, Advanced NME Warheads, Orkulus Rex, Kostura
TL: Twin Fortresses is certainly powerful, but quite expensive and highly situational. Supply Pact is irrelevant in 99 % of all MP games, Inspire and Impair requires an level 6 Ankylon, thats takes a while to get to, Group shield is pretty much worthless on any Titan Level below 8.
TR: for supply pact, see above
AL: Ancient Retribution? LOL. I dont think it is that good AND it helps you only against TEC. It does nothing against Vasari.
AR: Agreed
VL: add the Maw...
VR: Agreed
Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 22. You obviously don't read the forums becase Sagewon made a thread more or less identical to yours a couple days ago.
In all fairness, SageWon's thread title gives zero indication that the thread is about buffing the AL....
Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 5The thread's intent was to discuss Rebellion techs as demonstrated by the things you posted for the others. You violated this when you came to the Vasari by your mention of phase stabilizers. Recall that the Vasari are the mobility race in the game and have been since vanilla. That is a significant part of their theme. Also recall that for the cost and fleet supply, their ships are inefficient. Also, you referred to The Maw as a "fear-me" tech, but honestly, it's not even that good. It's an L6 on the titan that otherwise sucks at combat and even then, only affects frigates. If you see an L5 Vorastra and don't begin the transition to capitals, that's your own fault. Also, had you properly been doing this and including all "fear me" techs/abilities, your list would have looked something like this... TL: Twin Fortresses, Dual BRB, Pervasive Economy, Supply Pact, Inspire and Impair, Group Shield TR: TAR, Snipe, Scattershot, BRB, Pervasive Economy, Supply Pact AL: Ancient Retribution, Suppression Aura+Vertigo+Lethargy AR: WotS, Chastic Burst+Malice VL: STTC, Energetic Pulse Charging, Accelerated Wave Chargin, Shipboard Labs, phase stabilizers, enhanced RA, Kostura VR: Armor Restoration, Shared Shield Technology, Advanced NME Warheads, Orkulus Rex, Kostura
How can you include the ankylon's lvl 6 ability, but not the Vorastras lvl 6? Where is TAR, that is huge for eco players. Why is Supply pact and Ancient Retribution even on there in the first place? How come TEC and Advent titan abilities are included, but no mention of the ridiculous AoE combos of the VR titan or the ability to plant phase stabilizers anywhere with the VL titan?
Basically, I see this:
"See, I can count to 10! Watch me! 1, 2, potato, carrot, 10!"
"No no you are missing some numbers...1, 2, 4, donkey, go kart, 10....there that's much better..."
Agreed, the ability to place phase stabilizers can be quite nasty too, especially as with micro phase jumps the Vorastra can easily outmanuever most defenses with ease. And you can have it earlier than Kostura.
Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 9I did mention TAR. I guess you missed it? IaI got mentioned because it affects the entire battle, not just the enemy frigates. Supply Pact drastically reduces upkeep costs and increases FC, so it is very good. Ancient Retribution is also very powerful. The Kultorask only affects frigates and is worthless against anything bigger.
No I didn't see it, my bad...
I still don't see how IaI can be up there, but an ability that eats entire fleets and gives you resources isn't...IaI doesn't affect SC, and even at lvl 8 is only up about 1/3 of the time....
As for Supply Pact, envoys and pacts aren't even used in most games....there is only one ICO game I've played where I saw someone try to get supply pact, and that was a 4v4 with no suicide spots, How as VL in eco, and a TEC as the other eco...I'm not even sure they were able to get it before the game ended...sure, it's the most powerful pact no doubt, but no one uses pacts....
Some of the Techs you picked I just don't find to be very good, Ancient Retribution and especially the Pulse weapon tech just aren't game-changers...the PM and wave cannon techs can be though, because bomber spam and enforcer spam are viable and common strategies...
Also, if you are going to couple supression with 2 abilties on 2 different caps, then you better be coupling chastic burst with both fracture and malice...
As for the Kultorask, I think you are severely underestimating it's power...nano leach alone can do 100/200/300/400 hull damage per use, and affects frigates in all directions....scattershot might do comparable damage, but it isn't hull, it isn't seeping AM, and it isn't repairing or restoring the Ragnarov....then you have gravity pulse, which is completing disabling all frigates for a short time, which is a very nice touch for dealing with retreating fleets....even if you factor in overcharge, which doubles the damage, then you also have to consider dissever which is doing 1500-2150 damage...
Not as good as chastic burst against non frigates, but no titan can deal with frigates as good as the Kultorask, and the nice repair abilities is just an added bonus...it's not like the Vasari Rebels are helpless in dealing with capital ships or titans, they have PM bombers with insane PM techs...
I just think your list is missing some very important aspects...you can't cite specific abilities on the 4 of the titans, then completely ignore the Vasari titan abilities...
Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 9nd how many times were you thinking of the dead-frigate-culture-buff stacking? Maybe it's just me, but anything like that feels like AR territory to me anyways..
I don't even know man, you can't repel culture at enemy planets, and god knows how much culture you'd actually need to overthrow the enemies...
The question is that by the time ancient retribution is availabe, will it make much of a difference?
With frigates being the primarly fleet in any game against an human opponent I fail to see how an ability that does deal with them in large numbers is worthless. An Vasari Rebel will have a frigate fleet just like you, more than enough to deal with any surviving capital ships.
Agreed, dead frigate culture buff sounds more like AR.
Quoting stein220, reply 8I think Confluence, Acclimitzation, and Global Unity are supposed to be their good macro techs to set them apart from the Advent Rebels in particular. Are these lacking and if so, how?
These techs are lacking because their in-game effects are too small. Only the devs know exactly how culture works so I can't be more specific.
Exactly. I dont say that those techs are worthless, but compared to what you get by playing Advent Rebel, it is a bit small.
Quoting stein220, reply 8I think Confluence, Acclimitzation, and Global Unity are supposed to be their good macro techs to set them apart from the Advent Rebels in particular. Are these lacking and if so, how?
These techs are lacking because their in-game effects are too small. Only the devs know exactly how culture works so I can't be more specific.
Quoting Seleuceia, reply 8Extensive ability to overcome the gameplay constant limit on allegiance change rates
Confluence would be ideal for this.
Making cap ships spawn culture sounds good but rather unimpressive if it is an added effect to the tier 8 Fury of the Unity.
Instead, Fury of the Unity could buff the DE: 'Being on the receiving end of the Advent's rage via the Deliverance engine causes the inhabitants of enemy worlds to try and appease your wrath by offering gifts of money to the Unity'.
Planet for a Planet could be the 'fear me' tech for AL if it gets reworked by giving it a short duration but a gigantic damage buff, say 300% against enemy planets and structures. It would be situational but have a very noticeable effect, making AL deadly when counterattacking. It could be like Wail but in reverse.
Global Unity should have easier access. For example, make it a tier 3 tech that allows each planet to generate as much culture as if it had an in-built temple of communion.
I am not sure about cap ships spawning culture. Neither about the general idea nor about how to balance that properly.
DE buff could be interesting.
Planet for a Planet: Nice idea, however it might be a bit op with that numbers.
And I think will according to the lore, Advent Loyalists are eager to continue their revenge so they are supposed to be the agressive version of the Advent. just like Rebels are for TEC. That however makes this upgrade a bit unfitting.
Imho Advent Loyalist should have their temple of communion totally replaced by the Global Unity - at tech 2
