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Denryu
Denryu
Join Date 07/2006
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How are you going to determine if 70% of beta testers support moving to beta 2?

April 15, 2010 3:38:39 PM from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

I would be happy to do a survey monkey poll or of course you guys could do one. Or you could just start a dev journal thread asking for a single response yay or nay. And I am sure you won't even poll the beta testers until you feel that the current build is a worthy candidate to move on. Just wondering what we can expect and when?

Not chomping at the bit at all, as I don't want to be asked until I can vote yes!

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Denryu
maniakos
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #1 April 15, 2010 11:05:26 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Saying no is sometimes more important than saying yes.

 

Also, you do know that this forum supports polls.

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Denryu
2big2fail
Join Date 04/2010
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Reply #2 April 15, 2010 11:51:57 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Testers and developers aren't the same people. No doubt all the testers want the game to go into multiplayer and add the 3d engine but that's because our livelihood (ok maybe that is a bit dramatic) isn't on the line. In short, I want to play more of the game but that's only because I don't care if it throws off their beta strategy.

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Denryu
TheProgress
Join Date 04/2008
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Reply #3 April 16, 2010 12:08:19 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Game is still far too unstable for Beta 2.

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Myles
Join Date 09/2007
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Reply #4 April 16, 2010 12:20:16 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting 2big2fail,
reply 2
Testers and developers aren't the same people. No doubt all the testers want the game to go into multiplayer and add the 3d engine but that's because our livelihood (ok maybe that is a bit dramatic) isn't on the line. In short, I want to play more of the game but that's only because I don't care if it throws off their beta strategy.

You'd be surprised at how professional most beta testers are. I doubt 70% would recommend moving on to beta 2 even with the latest build. The grayed-out turn button is a real deal breaker right now.

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Denryu
2big2fail
Join Date 04/2010
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Reply #5 April 16, 2010 1:06:18 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Myles,
reply 4

Quoting 2big2fail, reply 2Testers and developers aren't the same people. No doubt all the testers want the game to go into multiplayer and add the 3d engine but that's because our livelihood (ok maybe that is a bit dramatic) isn't on the line. In short, I want to play more of the game but that's only because I don't care if it throws off their beta strategy.
You'd be surprised at how professional most beta testers are. I doubt 70% would recommend moving on to beta 2 even with the latest build. The grayed-out turn button is a real deal breaker right now.

 

It's not really that they are "unprofessional" so much as testers operate under vastly different motivations. For example, if 70% of the players never experienced a crash while the other 30% couldn't make it past turn 2 without a ctd, you might end up seeing a large majority in favor of moving forward despite over a quarter of your customers having an unplayable game. I'm not suggesting this scenario is realistic just that as beta testers we aren't focused on the overall picture. Any tester masquerading as some benevolent testing fairy is just tooting his own horn or is just a completely feckless tester.

Just let them do their thing, the collective well-wishes of forum poster will, unfortunately, leave reality unscathed.

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Denryu
Anomander
Join Date 04/2008
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Reply #6 April 16, 2010 4:33:20 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

No I still get crashes, and the AutoSave function causes most of them.

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Denryu
Wintersong
Join Date 07/2006
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Reply #7 April 16, 2010 4:43:27 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

How are you going to determine if 70% of beta testers support moving to beta 2?

d100 + Forum Modifier + Stardock Modifier

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Denryu
Mandelik
Join Date 09/2006
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Reply #8 April 16, 2010 6:59:15 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting 2big2fail,
reply 2
No doubt all the testers want the game to go into multiplayer...

No. I can't care less about multiplayer, probably will never play MP with Elemental.

I wonder how many % of testers feel the same.

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Denryu
Anomander
Join Date 04/2008
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Reply #9 April 16, 2010 7:02:51 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Mandelik,
reply 8

Quoting 2big2fail, reply 2No doubt all the testers want the game to go into multiplayer...
No. I can't care less about multiplayer, probably will never play MP with Elemental.

I wonder how many % of testers feel the same.

 

I'm buying for MP specifically! With the best intention in the world, there isn't a AI out there that comes close to a human opponent.

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Denryu
vieuxchat
Join Date 06/2006
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Reply #10 April 16, 2010 7:08:15 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Mandelik,
reply 8

Quoting 2big2fail, reply 2No doubt all the testers want the game to go into multiplayer...
No. I can't care less about multiplayer, probably will never play MP with Elemental.

I wonder how many % of testers feel the same.

I think he was only speaking about the beta 2, which will evolve around multiplayer, then the beta 3.

I usually don't care about multiplayer, because I'm just a weak player in most strategy games and most people I meet are just mean with bad players. The only game I was able to play fine was Rise of Nations (damn, that game was good).

But maybe I'll try the multiplayer with Elemental because I really like that game and I hope I'll find true players that aren't over-reacting when they win.

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Denryu
Satrhan
Join Date 11/2008
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Reply #11 April 16, 2010 8:29:25 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Mandelik,
reply 8



Quoting 2big2fail,
reply 2
No doubt all the testers want the game to go into multiplayer...


No. I can't care less about multiplayer, probably will never play MP with Elemental.

I wonder how many % of testers feel the same.

I'm not big on multiplayer too. But I doubt the multiplayer beta will be just about the multiplayer aspect (stable connections, communication and stuff like that). So far we have only been playing against very dumb AI's, but with multiplayer it's like you have a full-fledged AI that is looking for the best way to defeat you. I think that this way it will quickly become very clear which game mechanics work or don't work, if there are any 'I WIN' strategies, if certain technologies and buildings are useless, if the spheres of magic are somewhat balanced, and so on...

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Denryu
Tormy-
Join Date 02/2006
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Reply #12 April 16, 2010 8:37:55 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Mandelik,
reply 8



Quoting 2big2fail,
reply 2
No doubt all the testers want the game to go into multiplayer...


No. I can't care less about multiplayer, probably will never play MP with Elemental.

I wonder how many % of testers feel the same.

Actually I am a big multiplayer fan...

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Denryu
Philocthetes
Join Date 10/2003
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Reply #13 April 16, 2010 9:58:24 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

But I doubt the multiplayer beta will be just about the multiplayer aspect (stable connections, communication and stuff like that). So far we have only been playing against very dumb AI's, but with multiplayer it's like you have a full-fledged AI that is looking for the best way to defeat you.

I can't find it quickly, but Brad typed something recently to the effect that there are two reasons for bringing MP in for beta 2: testing the core MP functions themselves and using human-vs-human games as a way to refine the mechanics.

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Denryu
strager
Join Date 02/2010
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Reply #14 April 18, 2010 8:29:26 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Err I vote No.... even if it was crash free at this point. It just has too far to go to be ready for even basic MP. That being said, I think the MP test should be moved to Beta 4.... Beta 2 should be what Beta 3 is planned.....

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Denryu
John_Hughes
Join Date 09/2003
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Reply #15 April 19, 2010 10:09:32 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Mandelik,
reply 8

Quoting 2big2fail, reply 2No doubt all the testers want the game to go into multiplayer...
No. I can't care less about multiplayer, probably will never play MP with Elemental.

I wonder how many % of testers feel the same.

Please Vote at the link below. Ya or Nay. It is inpromptu but a collection none the less.

https://forums.elementalgame.com/378967

 

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Denryu
Frogboy
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #16 April 19, 2010 12:02:26 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Well personally, I would like to see us get to beta 3.  I'm anxious to start the actual game stuff.

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Denryu
Denryu
Join Date 07/2006
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Reply #17 April 19, 2010 1:18:24 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
reply 16
Well personally, I would like to see us get to beta 3.  I'm anxious to start the actual game stuff.

This is hilarious - the beta testers are saying hold back on the pretty graphics and the "make their eyes bleed" lead programmer and developer is saying "Bring on Beta 3!" 

I swear, this forum is more entertaining than ANY game on the market, and it's free. Well, aside from meds for the bleeding eyes...

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Denryu
Wintersong
Join Date 07/2006
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Reply #18 April 19, 2010 2:23:49 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Beta 3 is the start of serious business in terms of game mechanics too, you know.   Not that Frogboy isn't dying to show us that pretty 3D engine.

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Denryu
John_Hughes
Join Date 09/2003
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Reply #19 April 19, 2010 3:27:35 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
reply 16
Well personally, I would like to see us get to beta 3.  I'm anxious to start the actual game stuff.

Well I believe you have 25+ confirmed Beta MP testers who would certainly assist the Dev Team vigorously Test the Beta 2 MP functionality, even while Beta 3 is on going... hint hint...

Of course that would only be possible after 1Z3 corrects those niggly little 1Z2 issues first.

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Denryu
Tormy-
Join Date 02/2006
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Reply #20 April 19, 2010 3:59:32 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting John_Hughes,
reply 19



Quoting Frogboy,
reply 16
Well personally, I would like to see us get to beta 3.  I'm anxious to start the actual game stuff.


Well I believe you have 25+ confirmed Beta MP testers who would certainly assist the Dev Team vigorously Test the Beta 2 MP functionality, even while Beta 3 is on going... hint hint...

Of course that would only be possible after 1Z3 corrects those niggly little 1Z2 issues first.

Yep! We gonna test MP like madmen!

However we need much better stability before we hit phase 2. CTDs + lock-ups must be fixed at all costs, even if it means, that the release date will be pushed back. Reloading saved games can be fixed while we are in beta 2 or beta 3 as well...well imo.

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Denryu
Frogboy
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #21 April 19, 2010 5:29:02 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Err I vote No.... even if it was crash free at this point. It just has too far to go to be ready for even basic MP. That being said, I think the MP test should be moved to Beta 4.... Beta 2 should be what Beta 3 is planned.....

You do realize that that's a recipe for us just throwing out user input on things?

Anyone is free to make their own game but on this game, we will set the milestone conditions.

Beta 1 and beta 2 are about stability.  Beta 3 is the first "game" beta.  "basic MP" would be can two users connect to each other reliably and play a game to completion. Not whether it's "fun" for them or not.  

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Denryu
ReuelKB
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #22 April 19, 2010 5:51:52 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
reply 21

Err I vote No.... even if it was crash free at this point. It just has too far to go to be ready for even basic MP. That being said, I think the MP test should be moved to Beta 4.... Beta 2 should be what Beta 3 is planned.....

You do realize that that's a recipe for us just throwing out user input on things?

Anyone is free to make their own game but on this game, we will set the milestone conditions.

Beta 1 and beta 2 are about stability.  Beta 3 is the first "game" beta.  "basic MP" would be can two users connect to each other reliably and play a game to completion. Not whether it's "fun" for them or not.  

 

I thought we were supposed to hold off on Beta 3 (with the engine enabled) until just the cloth map itself could be fun, that way we are more likely to nail down better gameplay mechanics ('cause changing things around with the 3d engine is more expensive).  Or, perhaps I misunderstood?

 

 

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Denryu
Frogboy
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #23 April 19, 2010 6:02:08 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Not until it's fun to play but rather until the basic game mechanics are in and the game is solid. We don't want to rely on the pretty graphics as a crutch to hide weak game mechanics.

From what I've already seen internally, it would have been a disaster had we turned on the graphics engine early because the city building is enthralling enough to cover up weak game mechanics (i.e. I fear it would have made Elemental migrate in the direction of Caesar IV - a great game to be sure but not what we're aiming for).

 

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Denryu
Philocthetes
Join Date 10/2003
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Reply #24 April 19, 2010 7:26:22 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

... From what I've already seen internally, it would have been a disaster had we turned on the graphics engine early because the city building is enthralling enough to cover up weak game mechanics (i.e. I fear it would have made Elemental migrate in the direction of Caesar IV - a great game to be sure but not what we're aiming for).

You've warned us 'new' beta folks lately against getting too fond of any given game mechanic because big changes are still possible. I've had plenty of fun puttering with and thinking about how the outpost/improvement/'city' stuff works, and I'm completely prepared to see it ditched in favor of 'increased abstraction' along the lines of the Fall of the Camp 1 Economy. It's been fun for beta puttering, but the more of that I do, the more I wonder how tired of all that I'd get after my 10th or 20th game on a Ludicrous map.

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Denryu
Frogboy
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #25 April 19, 2010 7:27:25 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

I think it's safe to say that global resources are here to stay.

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