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What does the Kol need so it isn't the object of scorn.

By on July 8, 2012 11:03:02 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

stein220

Join Date 12/2008
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The Kol gets a lot of flak   but seriously, what does it need to reasonably keep up with the other capitals now that Rebellion is out?  

More AM to keep it's abilities going?  Higher scaling GRG?  Fuzzy dice?

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July 18, 2012 1:23:19 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Why can't Gauss Rail Gun have both the speed and regeneration debuffs?

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July 18, 2012 3:17:01 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Zeta1127,
Why can't Gauss Rail Gun have both the speed and regeneration debuffs?

Why doesn't it also create 15 other free kols?

Sorry I'm poking fun when I shouldn't.

It could work, but that's kinda a lot of effects....straight damage plus engine plus regen....nothing wrong, just a lot of effects.

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July 18, 2012 4:14:49 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

My biggest reservation with having a speed debuff combined with a passive regen debuff is that the ideal duration for each of those two effects is very different...a passive regen debuff lasting 20s would probably be too short, while a speed debuff lasting 20s would probably be too long...

I'm not saying it couldn't be balanced, it just would be more difficult...I'd still consider a combo as a possibility though if for whatever reason the other debuff isn't doing enough....

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July 18, 2012 7:18:13 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

But you do eventually start to get to the point where it just seems like you're adding additional entityModifiers because the previous ones weren't enough of a buff.

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July 18, 2012 8:03:40 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Hows about we leave the Kol alone for a change. We all know its indestructible at level 6 and can take a pounding esp when supplemented with Hoshikos and addittional flak to clear the skies of bombers and fighters.  

 

 

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July 18, 2012 9:05:12 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Which subesequently leads to the Kol being ignored by friend and foe alike. As stated orignially.

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July 18, 2012 10:24:06 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz,
Mecha, Sanchezz, Greg, or any other MP player, what would you like the change to be?  (And mecha, please don't troll.)

Let me ask you a question. Does Kol perform better than its counterparts? Do you see more Kortuls and Halcyons built to counter SC? Halcyon is completely useless as a late game anti SC platform, but is great starting cap. Maybe 1-2 people on ICO build Kortuls. Same with Kol.

If cap performs same as it's counterparts, you can't spam threads asking to buff that one specific cap. It's just childish.

There is no problem with Kol. It is NOT a starting cap. It's utility cap. You build it when you need support for your own SC.

Problem lies in big picture balance. How would you kill tougher Kol with more powerful flak burst, sitting near RBed SB surrounded by 60hp/s repair platforms? Get a titan, deploy Orkulus? Because of...a Kol? And is it fair for 3k cap to counter many times more expensive swarm of bombers?

Bombers are part of counter chain. Only real counter to SBs, especially RB (which now destroys SC, WTF?) and only half-decent counter to titans. Now, you want to buff Kol (not all anti-SC abilities, LOL! You guys are not embarrased at how biased you are?), which means nerfing bombers. Nerf to bombers=buff to titans, SBs, RB, turtling.Think of the poor Advent:p

 

 

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July 18, 2012 10:52:53 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Mecha-Lenin,

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 124Mecha, Sanchezz, Greg, or any other MP player, what would you like the change to be?  (And mecha, please don't troll.)

Let me ask you a question. Does Kol perform better than its counterparts? Do you see more Kortuls and Halcyons built to counter SC? Halcyon is completely useless as a late game anti SC platform, but is great starting cap. Maybe 1-2 people on ICO build Kortuls. Same with Kol.

If cap performs same as it's counterparts, you can't spam threads asking to buff that one specific cap. It's just childish.

There is no problem with Kol. It is NOT a starting cap. It's utility cap. You build it when you need support for your own SC.

Problem lies in big picture balance. How would you kill tougher Kol with more powerful flak burst, sitting near RBed SB surrounded by 60hp/s repair platforms? Get a titan, deploy Orkulus? Because of...a Kol? And is it fair for 3k cap to counter many times more expensive swarm of bombers?

Bombers are part of counter chain. Only real counter to SBs, especially RB (which now destroys SC, WTF?) and only half-decent counter to titans. Now, you want to buff Kol (not all anti-SC abilities, LOL! You guys are not embarrased at how biased you are?), which means nerfing bombers. Nerf to bombers=buff to titans, SBs, RB, turtling.Think of the poor Advent:p

 

 

 

Meh. The Advent are big girls now, they can take care of themselves.

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July 18, 2012 12:21:39 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Mecha-Lenin,

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 124Mecha, Sanchezz, Greg, or any other MP player, what would you like the change to be?  (And mecha, please don't troll.)

Let me ask you a question. Does Kol perform better than its counterparts? Do you see more Kortuls and Halcyons built to counter SC? Halcyon is completely useless as a late game anti SC platform, but is great starting cap. Maybe 1-2 people on ICO build Kortuls. Same with Kol.

If cap performs same as it's counterparts, you can't spam threads asking to buff that one specific cap. It's just childish.

There is no problem with Kol. It is NOT a starting cap. It's utility cap. You build it when you need support for your own SC.

Problem lies in big picture balance. How would you kill tougher Kol with more powerful flak burst, sitting near RBed SB surrounded by 60hp/s repair platforms? Get a titan, deploy Orkulus? Because of...a Kol? And is it fair for 3k cap to counter many times more expensive swarm of bombers?

Bombers are part of counter chain. Only real counter to SBs, especially RB (which now destroys SC, WTF?) and only half-decent counter to titans. Now, you want to buff Kol (not all anti-SC abilities, LOL! You guys are not embarrased at how biased you are?), which means nerfing bombers. Nerf to bombers=buff to titans, SBs, RB, turtling.Think of the poor Advent:p

 

 

Is he just trolling?

 

For everyone else besides Mecha:

Out of the Kol's abilities, the finest hour and flak are the most generally agreed ones to not change. Kol (flak)+SB (RB) with repair is very easy to take out even without any titan/orky. The kol has a hard time wiping out all SC within it's AoE. You really need two kols. Additionally the AoE is small (particularly compared to the Halcyon and Kortul) and you will never destroy all the SC at once (when facing enough bombers to take out a SB).

To have a truly effective turtle you need as many high level caps as possible, plus SB with 3 armor, RB, aux gov, and weapons/SC, plus nearby hanger/flak and repairs. If you are TEC, use a small expendable force of ogrovs (if he has a range akkan, use an akkan of your own -- it will survive the RB just fine, not to mention it can simply be out of range). With a heavily upgraded SB, the player will not want to use the Red Button without a large payback. Tease him with ogrovs, or send guardians to push him out. If he sends his ships out from the SB to engage, now is your chance to detonate antimatter or EMP or destroy his caps.

For the record, bombers cost nothing (if they are lost to flak), so long as you do not lose your carriers (this is where the cost lies). 3k Kol takes out all your bombers you've lost 0k. Yeah that sounds fair.

That being said, changing the Kol to have a passive AFF and either passive regen disable or armor penetration on the GRG would not make a lot better of a turtlier.

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July 18, 2012 12:34:30 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting CoronalFire,

Quoting Mecha-Lenin, reply 133
Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 124Mecha, Sanchezz, Greg, or any other MP player, what would you like the change to be?  (And mecha, please don't troll.)

Let me ask you a question. Does Kol perform better than its counterparts? Do you see more Kortuls and Halcyons built to counter SC? Halcyon is completely useless as a late game anti SC platform, but is great starting cap. Maybe 1-2 people on ICO build Kortuls. Same with Kol.

If cap performs same as it's counterparts, you can't spam threads asking to buff that one specific cap. It's just childish.

There is no problem with Kol. It is NOT a starting cap. It's utility cap. You build it when you need support for your own SC.

Problem lies in big picture balance. How would you kill tougher Kol with more powerful flak burst, sitting near RBed SB surrounded by 60hp/s repair platforms? Get a titan, deploy Orkulus? Because of...a Kol? And is it fair for 3k cap to counter many times more expensive swarm of bombers?

Bombers are part of counter chain. Only real counter to SBs, especially RB (which now destroys SC, WTF?) and only half-decent counter to titans. Now, you want to buff Kol (not all anti-SC abilities, LOL! You guys are not embarrased at how biased you are?), which means nerfing bombers. Nerf to bombers=buff to titans, SBs, RB, turtling.Think of the poor Advent:p

 

 

Is he just trolling?

 

For everyone else besides Mecha:

Out of the Kol's abilities, the finest hour and flak are the most generally agreed ones to not change. Kol (flak)+SB (RB) with repair is very easy to take out even without any titan/orky. The kol has a hard time wiping out all SC within it's AoE. You really need two kols. Additionally the AoE is small (particularly compared to the Halcyon and Kortul) and you will never destroy all the SC at once (when facing enough bombers to take out a SB).

To have a truly effective turtle you need as many high level caps as possible, plus SB with 3 armor, RB, aux gov, and weapons/SC, plus nearby hanger/flak and repairs. If you are TEC, use a small expendable force of ogrovs (if he has a range akkan, use an akkan of your own -- it will survive the RB just fine, not to mention it can simply be out of range). With a heavily upgraded SB, the player will not want to use the Red Button without a large payback. Tease him with ogrovs, or send guardians to push him out. If he sends his ships out from the SB to engage, now is your chance to detonate antimatter or EMP or destroy his caps.

For the record, bombers cost nothing (if they are lost to flak), so long as you do not lose your carriers (this is where the cost lies). 3k Kol takes out all your bombers you've lost 0k. Yeah that sounds fair.

That being said, changing the Kol to have a passive AFF and either passive regen disable or armor penetration on the GRG would not make a lot better of a turtlier.

Yes, corosomething teach me how to play. Who are you, btw? I don't play with you and I don't know you. Odds are, even as rusty as I am, I can wipe the floor with you with my eyes closed. So act accordingly please.

I am talking about important stuff. Anti-sc and EHP. Don't really care about gimmicky GRG.

Like all noobs, you probably want 1 cap to wipe 10000 bombers in 1-2 casts.

Or have uber GRG, anti-sc and tank in 1 cap. omg. Few caps don't have at least 1 useless ability.

Maaaaybe you could slightly buff flak burst, but I mean slightly. Some range increase? Nothing comparable to changes you are talking about.

For the last time you can't have 1 cap counter 999999 frigates/cruisers.

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July 18, 2012 1:04:53 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Let's be honest...the real reason no one builds a Kol is because 1) it doesn't colonize planets and 2) it isn't the corsev...and really, do you need anything beyond beyond that?

Quoting CoronalFire,
For the record, bombers cost nothing (if they are lost to flak), so long as you do not lose your carriers (this is where the cost lies). 3k Kol takes out all your bombers you've lost 0k. Yeah that sounds fair.

Bombers don't directly cost credits, but you are kidding yourself if you think they "cost nothing"...without the bombers, carriers are just flying bricks that suck up resources and valuable fleet supply...bombers are about the only thing that is really effective against titans, high level caps, and SBs, and if you lose your bombers your fleet is extremely vulnerable...even if you walk away with your carriers, by losing your firepower you are open to attack with little recourse...you can't amass bombers in a pinch, the squadrons take time to build and light carriers aren't exactly known for the AM regeneration...

You take out someone's SC swarms late game, you pretty much have their fleet on the ropes...

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July 18, 2012 3:16:50 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
Let's be honest...the real reason no one builds a Kol is because 1) it doesn't colonize planets and 2) it isn't the corsev...and really, do you need anything beyond beyond that?

Bombers don't directly cost credits, but you are kidding yourself if you think they "cost nothing"...without the bombers, carriers are just flying bricks that suck up resources and valuable fleet supply...bombers are about the only thing that is really effective against titans, high level caps, and SBs, and if you lose your bombers your fleet is extremely vulnerable...even if you walk away with your carriers, by losing your firepower you are open to attack with little recourse...you can't amass bombers in a pinch, the squadrons take time to build and light carriers aren't exactly known for the AM regeneration...

You take out someone's SC swarms late game, you pretty much have their fleet on the ropes...

 

Yes I know this. However he is talking about 1 kol, when in fact it is only deadly when combined with other appropriate ships. A kol + SB can't do anything to carriers on the opposite side of the well.

Additionally, I do not want flak burst buffed, except perhaps in range (Telekinetic and jam weapons has a much greater AoE, thus more more useful late game then the flak burst [if you use them in pairs, since one telekinetic doesn't kill any alone], however I can accept this as a slight TEC weakness).

 

Quoting Mecha-Lenin,
Quoting CoronalFire, reply 135

Yes, corosomething teach me how to play. Who are you, btw? I don't play with you and I don't know you. Odds are, even as rusty as I am, I can wipe the floor with you with my eyes closed. So act accordingly please.

I am talking about important stuff. Anti-sc and EHP. Don't really care about gimmicky GRG.

Like all noobs, you probably want 1 cap to wipe 10000 bombers in 1-2 casts.

Or have uber GRG, anti-sc and tank in 1 cap. omg. Few caps don't have at least 1 useless ability.

Maaaaybe you could slightly buff flak burst, but I mean slightly. Some range increase? Nothing comparable to changes you are talking about.

For the last time you can't have 1 cap counter 999999 frigates/cruisers.

As for one cap killing 999,999 frigates, it's called missile barrage. "Act accordingly"? Lol whatever troll.

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July 18, 2012 3:24:27 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Lol

you really should play against mecha

 

I'll bring the popcorn for everyone else

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July 18, 2012 4:54:24 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

A player isn't going to have just a single kol...the "60 HP/s regen" statement implies that at the very least, repair bays and hoshikos are there in support...good odds too that there'll be some flak, and maybe even some hangars with flak turets...especially if they are TL, it's not an easy situation to deal with...it's time consuming and risky, assuming you can even jump your fleet in there in the first place...you're better sending all those bombers to go do something useful, like kill an enemy fleet instead of feeding the Kol XP....

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July 18, 2012 5:21:16 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,
A player isn't going to have just a single kol...the "60 HP/s regen" statement implies that at the very least, repair bays and hoshikos are there in support...good odds too that there'll be some flak, and maybe even some hangars with flak turets...especially if they are TL, it's not an easy situation to deal...it's time consuming and risky, assuming you can even jump your fleet in there in the first place...you're better sending all those bombers to go do something useful, like kill an enemy fleet instead of feeding the Kol XP....

 

True. In which case you should have a number of countermeasures aside from bomber spam.

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July 18, 2012 5:29:45 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Mecha does have some valid points, Corona.  

Mecha, quite honestly, I think that TKP's range is actually too short as well and accordingly buffed it in my mod.  I can't remember if it was you or some other MP player that said, "Do you realize how quickly bombers can cross that distance [between the range of TKP and the weapons of the bomber]?"  Flak Burst later in the game really is quite powerful simply because it can unload a ton of uncapped AoE damage on enemy SC, making it much easier for Flak to assist.  I am surprised that so few build Kortuls though.

I do understand what you mean though about how bombers could be made much weaker by extension.  Flak Burst is good.  The only way I'd support buffing it would be if it added an accuracy debuff to afflicted SC for the sole purpose of trying to deal with critical mass bombers on their first pass.  Heck, to counteract that, I honestly would be okay with reducing its damage somewhat.  Bombers need to be a viable tactic to counter starbases, capitals, and titans.

I don't think anyone here wants to really make a new Corsev.  I nerfed Salvage Operations hard in my mod.  I think most of us agree that making AFF passive is going to necessarily come with nerfs.

Why then are you so concerned about this being detrimental to bomber effectiveness?  If we don't want FB getting buffed and want AFF nerfed and made passive, the only way I see that making the Kol better against SC is the fact that it wouldn't be starving for AM constantly.  An enhanced GRG would still be vying for your AM though, so I honestly think it could be okay.

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July 18, 2012 5:34:50 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Yeah I mean I don't know why we are arguing over Flak Burst anyways.

It's a plot of Mecha's. Divide and conquer.

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July 18, 2012 5:47:26 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz,
"Do you realize how quickly bombers can cross that distance [between the range of TKP and the weapons of the bomber]?"

It was Mecha...I made the case that TK push was more useful than FB at lower levels, with the greater range as just one small advantage...he, in classic mecha fashion, probably proceeded to tell me how retarded I was...good memories...

I agree that both FB and TK push could use some range increases...joking aside, I also don't think AFF being passive will make a new Corsev...

AFF scales, but it isn't regenerating health like the Corsev is...the other issue is that the AoE ability on the Corsev is just an awesome fleet killer, putting malice and fracture to shame in the early game...Kol on the other hand doesn't have a frigate AoE as a normal ability, so I don't think we need to worry too much about that...

Generally, most ships are 2 ability builds, so if someone is getting a high level AFF, they likely either have GRG or FB, not both...I don't think balancing AFF when its passive is going to be too difficult...harder problem is picking good values for GRG and FB...

Personally think a secondary debuff with FB would be fine...ability is a little weak at low levels (though range is part of the problem), debuff could help low level kols still be useful in the late game for dealing with bomber swarms...

 

 

 

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July 18, 2012 5:57:32 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

think his concern is that with the AM freed up from AFF, you could mash Flak Burst more frequently.  You are right though, the Corsev is so stinking hard to kill because it regenerates from every dead ally passively while detonating ships to damage your fleet.

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July 18, 2012 8:07:36 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Why you people are so obsessed, and I mean obsessed with Kol is beyond me.

 

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July 18, 2012 8:31:23 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Mecha-Lenin,
Why you people are so obsessed, and I mean obsessed with Kol is beyond me.

"Phallic might" ring a bell?

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July 18, 2012 8:52:49 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,

Quoting Mecha-Lenin, reply 146Why you people are so obsessed, and I mean obsessed with Kol is beyond me.

"Phallic might" ring a bell?

You could instead get Kol model that goes with Collector's Edition. Although I'm afraid it's in horizontal position by default. Is this an issue?

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July 18, 2012 9:00:08 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Mecha-Lenin,
Is this an issue?

It would depend on the location of the vertical stand and the overall length of the Kol...

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July 18, 2012 9:15:17 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I've been playing this game since 2008.  It amazes me all the details you guys know about these ships and weapons.

I thought the same thing playing BF2.  All the knowledge about the guns and tanks and jets the players have.  I just knew how to kill with them.  I've logged 40,000 jet kills and 30,000 chopper kills in BF2 and I still couldn't name all the jets in and helos in the game.

 

You guys are f$$king geeks.

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July 18, 2012 9:23:46 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting minidump-hellboy,
I've been playing this game since 2008.  It amazes me all the details you guys know about these ships and weapons.

I thought the same thing playing BF2.  All the knowledge about the guns and tanks and jets the players have.  I just knew how to kill with them.  I've logged 40,000 jet kills and 30,000 chopper kills in BF2 and I still couldn't name all the jets in and helos in the game.

 

You guys are f$$king geeks.

I'm sorry Sir, but it means you have a learning disabilty. If you kill something 40k times you should at least know its name. Unless, of course, you're a f$$king moron.

Have a good day and God bless you!

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