The minion topic Attack and Defense » Forum Post by OMG

Before I go through and do a more in depth reply:

I do think that they need to be either removed or all DG should be able to buy them. But I also feel there shouldnt be any differences, so if you give everyone minions, I feel they should all be able to pick any favor item.

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Quoting Teseer,

reply 1

Before I go through and do a more in depth reply:

I do think that they need to be either removed or all DG should be able to buy them. But I also feel there shouldnt be any differences, so if you give everyone minions, I feel they should all be able to pick any favor item.

Give Queen of thorns BoTS and I'll be happy for assassin to buy idols!

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Well lets get this started…..

First monks were overpowered as they heal by percent, and people wanted it turned into a base number; which after a point would make monks completely useless and wouldn’t stop hp stacking as long as we continued to have a hp flag and sigils.

With HP stacking BS they are OP, yes. Either change I would be happy with. I honestly just hate store bought priests. You yourself hate sending a monk to the other lane, and you don't see why that is stupid? You HAVE to have a monk if the other side has one. There is no way around it. It just makes extra micro for no fucking reason for the general. Its not a lot, but its stupid that you have to do it. If HP items are nerfed, then the % is fine. Otherwise, I feel a hard number would be better (maybe scaling with the DG)

Secondly some people said they either wanted idols either taken out of the game (Fuck each and everyone one of you!) Or let them be bought by every Demigod and not just generals. I find this amazing as doing this won’t seem to make Assassins overpowered, while suggesting giving Blade of the serpent to Generals will somehow break this game. The way split put it “No demigod should have both infinite mana and healing at the same time.” So if giving General Bots will break this game, then so should giving every demigod idols, and if idols were removed then I for one would stop playing all together.

Generals were a GREAT concept! It was the reason I couldn't wait to play Demigod. In the beta, I played TB just because he was my favorite of the three and I was using him to hold me over for Generals as I am a strataty game player at heart.

Again, you've agreed a million times over about how minions need to be completely reworked. They feel to me that they were just thrown in. I was promised a completely different game as a General.

If you don't think I was excited about Generals, read my post from the Beta:
General Generals

Now even with all the bugs in this game; siege is overpowered to, what the hell? Ok, so it takes 15 AA to kill them, but I don’t want them dropped in three or four damn hits. How about we also add them to that and just have one idol or special unit give the same amount of gold as one would get from killing a demigod, I mean that should be fair to then. What next? You want berserkers to die in one hit, no wait how about unmulchable shamblers? No I got it Yeti’s that can only attack anything that moves (Ok that just may as well be an improvement.)

This goes back to me feeling that everything needs to be re-worked. They shouldn't be insta-gibbed but as it stands right now, REGARDLESS of how it is balance wise, how fun is it to constantly have to attack minions with absolutly no gain at all? Sure, its fun when you're ordering them around, as you know, but hell, even as TB, it gets old REAL quick.

I mean hell, minions can't even attack anyone moving worth a damn. They are absolutely in need to a HUGE revamp that will never come. It hurts me because I was so fucking excited to play a general. The only thing a general is, is an assassin with minions. I would of been fine with that but don't classify them as two different things and pretend they are that different.

You have to react when cats and giants are attacking your towers so why shouldn’t you have to when minions are? Another thing is why the hell are you leaving a general alone to build their army?

Giants can't be ordered around and you ALWAYS know exactly what will happen with them. Its not a Demigod forcing you to react and its ALWAYS predictable exactly where and when they will be somewhere.

And leaving a general alone to build an army? 3 clicks and all store bought minions are up. If you click cast, in the time it takes you to move your mouse to the next minion, the cast for the previous is done.

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Quoting synnworld,

reply 2

Give Queen of thorns BoTS and I'll be happy for assassin to buy idols!

Deal 1,000x times over.

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Man, re-reading my old post pissed me off all over! lol

"Unlike the Assassins, Generals are far weaker in direct combat (one-on-one, any Assassin can kill any General) but what they lack in sheer destructive capability they make up for in strategic versatility, particularly the ability to be in more than one place at a time through the agency of their minions."
Source

"Or by splitting off, the player can strike on multiple fronts while leaving his or her General vulnerable to assault. "
Source

"This type of demigod is still very powerful, but its greater strength comes from the units under its command. The character can summon various forms of minions, and give them orders. "
Source

"A general, although less potent on its own, can either focus its minions on a single target, or look to control various parts of the map."
Source

grrar

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I mean hell, minions can't even attack anyone moving worth a damn. They are absolutely in need to a HUGE revamp that will never come. It hurts me because I was so fucking excited to play a general. The only thing a general is, is an assassin with minions. I would of been fine with that but don't classify them as two different things and pretend they are that different.

Excuse me, but what exactly did you expect from Generals? What could they have as an asset to differenciate them from assassins?

A General controls minions as they feel like, what more could they have?

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Read the post above you. That was what was promised.

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Quoting Teseer,

reply 7

Read the post above you. That was what was promised.

Yeah, I see what you mean. I posted before the page refreshed and didnt see your post.

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@first part

As we have established 1000x the problem is not monks, but it is the hp stacking in general itself. The percent healing done by priest are only being used as a scape goat for the soource of the problem. I understand people want long drawn out battles; which there shield be if it is 1 v 1 tank vs tank, but when it is affecting the others also blame is quickly being pointed in the wrong direction. If we were to make it base then please tell me how you would Set a priest Healing that it will be Fairly useful to a TB and queen as well as UB and rook? Something that is fair heal to those who arent base stat oriented is well under powered to those who are, and to those that is fair to base stat oriented; chances are it will be over powering for those who aren't,

@seond part

I have agreed and wrote a whole topic on how generals need to be rewritten completetly which we will never see, at all sadly. But why should I let that stop me from using queen, OC, Oak, and LE as a general, or at least trying? I understand the hybrids are the ones overpowering at mos time, but hurting minions to make minion builds pointless as many have suggested in the past is not the way to go, and neither is completely removing them from the game.

@third part

As a general doyou think I find it fu having my minions whiped out as soon as I hit the field? That is all that happens when we suicide towers, and then we are defenseless, why? We have no power without our minions, and those who can't summon minions are pressed for time on when to move, while those who summon them literally gives up a large chunk of mana in the beginning, and at the end can have thier damage negated by divine justice and armor stacked opponent.

Any strategy game player who jumped straight into generals whether they were beta or not was hurt.

@final part

Are you serious? You can predict where the players themselves will go on just about every map. It the same crap over and over again: Go for so and so flag, 60% chance so and so demigo will be there. Now fight win and farm or lose and run; then push that lane. Their are rarely any difference becauseNO one plays anything outside conquest outside path anymore.

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OK. My list.

1. Lower health of demolishers(and all gunners) because as of now they're OP and pretty much uncounterable.

2. Let generals choose how many idols they want instead of fixing it: so give generals to go triple monks, or double minotaurs and a gunner. This will give more flexibility to generals in making their armies.

3. Lower monkidol to 1 minion, keep gunners the same, and set minotaurs to 3. To give minotaurs more a feel of massive zerg waves.

4. REMOVE demigod healing from monks only giving them the ability to heal creeps and other minions. Why do the generals need super regen? Even if you change it to a fixed amount it still means that assasin style generals just have a slot for another regen item. Generals dont need regen, it completely screws over attrition(and demigods like TB get fucked). This also means extra monks can be a strategic choice: I can get more minotaurs but I can also keep my current ones alive longer with a monk. Keep priest healing though, this will make em more viable too.

5. MORE MINION ITEMS. Seriously, also artifact minion boosters.

6.(optional) somehow make minions less suspicable(spelling blah) to AOE and allow non aoe demigods to actually kill a minion creep wave, because as of now AOE rapes minions while normal attacking is absolutely useless against them.

7.(optional) let minions be knockbacked but give generals the option to make em immune with items/abilities.

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Quoting synnworld,

@first part

As we have established 1000x the problem is not monks, but it is the hp stacking in general itself. The percent healing done by priest are only being used as a scape goat for the soource of the problem. I understand people want long drawn out battles; which there shield be if it is 1 v 1 tank vs tank, but when it is affecting the others also blame is quickly being pointed in the wrong direction. If we were to make it base then please tell me how you would Set a priest Healing that it will be Fairly useful to a TB and queen as well as UB and rook? Something that is fair heal to those who arent base stat oriented is well under powered to those who are, and to those that is fair to base stat oriented; chances are it will be over powering for those who aren't,

Like I wrote before, one or the other needs to change (monks or HP items). Yes, monks are OP because of HP items but if HP items don't change where does that leave you?

My wish would be that priests automatically spawn at War Rank 3 and you remove store bought priests. But my wish isn't gunna be granted so it's not worth discussing.

Quoting synnworld,

@seond part

I have agreed and wrote a whole topic on how generals need to be rewritten completetly which we will never see, at all sadly. But why should I let that stop me from using queen, OC, Oak, and LE as a general, or at least trying? I understand the hybrids are the ones overpowering at mos time, but hurting minions to make minion builds pointless as many have suggested in the past is not the way to go, and neither is completely removing them from the game.

That's an openion. One that I don't share.

I never said don't use the minion build. I said it bothers me and I think it's lame.

Quoting synnworld,

@third part

As a general doyou think I find it fu having my minions whiped out as soon as I hit the field? That is all that happens when we suicide towers, and then we are defenseless, why? We have no power without our minions, and those who can't summon minions are pressed for time on when to move, while those who summon them literally gives up a large chunk of mana in the beginning, and at the end can have thier damage negated by divine justice and armor stacked opponent.

Any strategy game player who jumped straight into generals whether they were beta or not was hurt.

It's quite different for someone who spent months and months waiting for them to be released, researching them intently only to find that everything you were told and found was a lie.

And honestly, I'm glad its not fun to suicide minions. It's gay.

Quoting synnworld,

@final part

Are you serious? You can predict where the players themselves will go on just about every map. It the same crap over and over again: Go for so and so flag, 60% chance so and so demigo will be there. Now fight win and farm or lose and run; then push that lane. Their are rarely any difference becauseNO one plays anything outside conquest outside path anymore.

So players are as predictable as creeps always walking the same path, eh?

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Quoting lifekatana,

OK. My list.

1. Lower health of demolishers(and all gunners) because as of now they're OP and pretty much uncounterable.

2. Let generals choose how many idols they want instead of fixing it: so give generals to go triple monks, or double minotaurs and a gunner. This will give more flexibility to generals in making their armies.

3. Lower monkidol to 1 minion, keep gunners the same, and set minotaurs to 3. To give minotaurs more a feel of massive zerg waves.

4. REMOVE demigod healing from monks only giving them the ability to heal creeps and other minions. Why do the generals need super regen? Even if you change it to a fixed amount it still means that assasin style generals just have a slot for another regen item. Generals dont need regen, it completely screws over attrition(and demigods like TB get fucked). This also means extra monks can be a strategic choice: I can get more minotaurs but I can also keep my current ones alive longer with a monk. Keep priest healing though, this will make em more viable too.

5. MORE MINION ITEMS. Seriously, also artifact minion boosters.

6.(optional) somehow make minions less suspicable(spelling blah) to AOE and allow non aoe demigods to actually kill a minion creep wave, because as of now AOE rapes minions while normal attacking is absolutely useless against them.

7.(optional) let minions be knockbacked but give generals the option to make em immune with items/abilities.

I actually really like all of these ideas.

Edit: Mainly the idea of not 3 of the different idols. Only issue is everyone would pick 3 archers if priests couldnt heal DGs (which I like this change too). I like the idea of monks keeping your MINIONS alive. I wouldnt mind upping the heal for them either!

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Quoting GM-morpheas768,

reply 8

Yeah, I see what you mean. I posted before the page refreshed and didnt see your post.

Sa'll gravy

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Quoting lifekatana,

reply 10

OK. My list.

1. Lower health of demolishers(and all gunners) because as of now they're OP and pretty much uncounterable.

2. Let generals choose how many idols they want instead of fixing it: so give generals to go triple monks, or double minotaurs and a gunner. This will give more flexibility to generals in making their armies.

3. Lower monkidol to 1 minion, keep gunners the same, and set minotaurs to 3. To give minotaurs more a feel of massive zerg waves.

4. REMOVE demigod healing from monks only giving them the ability to heal creeps and other minions. Why do the generals need super regen? Even if you change it to a fixed amount it still means that assasin style generals just have a slot for another regen item. Generals dont need regen, it completely screws over attrition(and demigods like TB get fucked). This also means extra monks can be a strategic choice: I can get more minotaurs but I can also keep my current ones alive longer with a monk. Keep priest healing though, this will make em more viable too.

5. MORE MINION ITEMS. Seriously, also artifact minion boosters.

6.(optional) somehow make minions less suspicable(spelling blah) to AOE and allow non aoe demigods to actually kill a minion creep wave, because as of now AOE rapes minions while normal attacking is absolutely useless against them.

7.(optional) let minions be knockbacked but give generals the option to make em immune with items/abilities.

Everything in bold = bad

Unless you are going to ub beserkers hp or damage then hell no; they are always the first to do and ones who are most useless.

@Teseer

Like I said as long as we have items like Sigils and hp flags then it will change nother breaking monks. So you tell me it isn't obvious or predictable who will go where on maps like cataract?

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Quoting Teseer,

reply 12

lifekatana OK. My list.

1. Lower health of demolishers(and all gunners) because as of now they're OP and pretty much uncounterable.

2. Let generals choose how many idols they want instead of fixing it: so give generals to go triple monks, or double minotaurs and a gunner. This will give more flexibility to generals in making their armies.

3. Lower monkidol to 1 minion, keep gunners the same, and set minotaurs to 3. To give minotaurs more a feel of massive zerg waves.

4. REMOVE demigod healing from monks only giving them the ability to heal creeps and other minions. Why do the generals need super regen? Even if you change it to a fixed amount it still means that assasin style generals just have a slot for another regen item. Generals dont need regen, it completely screws over attrition(and demigods like TB get fucked). This also means extra monks can be a strategic choice: I can get more minotaurs but I can also keep my current ones alive longer with a monk. Keep priest healing though, this will make em more viable too.

5. MORE MINION ITEMS. Seriously, also artifact minion boosters.

6.(optional) somehow make minions less suspicable(spelling blah) to AOE and allow non aoe demigods to actually kill a minion creep wave, because as of now AOE rapes minions while normal attacking is absolutely useless against them.

7.(optional) let minions be knockbacked but give generals the option to make em immune with items/abilities.

I actually really like all of these ideas.

Edit: Mainly the idea of not 3 of the different idols. Only issue is everyone would pick 3 archers if priests couldnt heal DGs (which I like this change too). I like the idea of monks keeping your MINIONS alive. I wouldnt mind upping the heal for them either!

I'm sorry no if Priest couldn't heal my queen I would go all seige and you would never see me ; only my shamblers and sieges.

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And you don't see how that would be very unfun for the other side?

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Quoting synnworld,

reply 14

@Teseer

Like I said as long as we have items like Sigils and hp flags then it will change nother breaking monks. So you tell me it isn't obvious or predictable who will go where on maps like cataract?

You're missing the point...again. The point is you can be fighting say...Oak somewhere on the map and his Demos can be at your side towers, front towers or whatever.

When your fighting ANYONE you know exactly what the creeps are going to be doing. It doesnt matter WHO your opponent it, they will always do the same thing so giants/cats have ABSOLUTLY NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS.

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Quoting Teseer,

reply 16

And you don't see how that would be very unfun for the other side?

Which is why that is a bad idea! In begining game the only incentitive that stops me from actually doing that with shamblers, seige, and berserkers are monks healing abilities.

Quoting Teseer,

reply 17

Quoting synnworld, reply 14

@Teseer

Like I said as long as we have items like Sigils and hp flags then it will change nother breaking monks. So you tell me it isn't obvious or predictable who will go where on maps like cataract?
You're missing the point...again. The point is you can be fighting say...Oak somewhere on the map and his Demos can be at your side towers, front towers or whatever.

When your fighting ANYONE you know exactly what the creeps are going to be doing. It doesnt matter WHO your opponent it, they will always do the same thing so giants/cats have ABSOLUTLY NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS.

How is this different from predicting a person is going to attack a tower with thier minions, a oak and rook will head straight to the hp flag,A tower rook will continue to push and hold that lane? We cantry and say because we aren't AI we have the will to change, but in every game it is the same thing; because even we we are people we still follow set rules of the game You can win without kills, but you can't win without having held certain flags for a certain length of time. You won't win without upgrading your equuipment and after a while you should be able to atleast predict when these things will happen. Of course your not psychic, and you can't see the future, but these mentalities makes what a player will do next predictable.

The perfect example in this game is interrupts; one who has masted it literally predicts how their opponents will move.

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I dont usually toot my own horn, but I'm bad ass with interrupts. I can predict just fine, thank you.

I don't understand how you're still missing the point. I really don't. It's not about predicting if they are going to do it. Its that they can do it whenever they want and force you to either lose a tower or drop what your doing to go stop it without them doing anything other then right clicking the tower.

There is ZERO skill involved with it. None. No timing is needed other then waiting till you see someone somewhere else. No restraint is needed because they're DIRT cheap mana wise.

I hate it when someone on my side is doing it. It feels dirty and underhanded.

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Quoting Teseer,

reply 19

I dont usually toot my own horn, but I'm bad ass with interrupts. I can predict just fine, thank you.

I don't understand how you're still missing the point. I really don't. It's not about predicting if they are going to do it. Its that they can do it whenever they want and force you to either lose a tower or drop what your doing to go stop it without them doing anything other then right clicking the tower.

There is ZERO skill involved with it. None. No timing is needed other then waiting till you see someone somewhere else. No restraint is needed because they're DIRT cheap mana wise.

I hate it when someone on my side is doing it. It feels dirty and underhanded.

Quoting Teseer,

reply 19

I dont usually toot my own horn, but I'm bad ass with interrupts. I can predict just fine, thank you.

I don't understand how you're still missing the point. I really don't. It's not about predicting if they are going to do it. Its that they can do it whenever they want and force you to either lose a tower or drop what your doing to go stop it without them doing anything other then right clicking the tower.

There is ZERO skill involved with it. None. No timing is needed other then waiting till you see someone somewhere else. No restraint is needed because they're DIRT cheap mana wise.

I hate it when someone on my side is doing it. It feels dirty and underhanded.

Zero skill! No spitting and running requires 0 skill, just clicking and letting your dg AA an opponent to death requires 0 skill, spamming a fire ball requires 0 skill. Maintaining a army, micro managing smaller units while trying to to let the larger unit get killed. Trying to maintain a balance between the dg and the minions just incase requires much more then just 0 skill.

I don't care who the DG is; A pure minion build can't allow thier military might to fall or they might as will be holding up a sign saying gank me now!

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Wow, nothing requires skill huh?

Fireball requires you to be in range. So does spit (but I agree, no skill in spit/fireball), and yeah, managin an army does require skill. But summoning archers and right clicking a tower does. You dont ever need to look at them again after the click

Ok, I whole heartedly believe that you're doing this on purpose to piss me off because this is too much like how a customer acts to be for real.

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Quoting Teseer,

reply 21

Wow, nothing requires skill huh?

Fireball requires you to be in range. So does spit (but I agree, no skill in spit/fireball), and yeah, managin an army does require skill. But summoning archers and right clicking a tower does. You dont ever need to look at them again after the click

Ok, I whole heartedly believe that you're doing this on purpose to piss me off because this is too much like how a customer acts to be for real.

>.> Maybe only partially, but it pissing my off how you say a minion build requires no skill when not ever person who plays minion builds suicide them into freaking towers and actually use them to control lanes and support their teammates. No matter how complex you try to make it this whole game in the end is point and click. Everyone points and clicks. Even those you say suiciding minions onto a building require no skill then you should agree spitting on a building, circle of fire on a building, Tossing done mines in the path of a creep wave, uproot, or just about any skill that doesn't require you there, getting your ass handed to you; requires no skill.

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I didnt say anything about a minion build taking no skill...

This is what I mean! Please read carefully.

Quoting Teseer,

reply 19

Its that they can do it whenever they want and force you to either lose a tower or drop what your doing to go stop it without them doing anything other then right clicking the tower.

There is ZERO skill involved with it. None. No timing is needed other then waiting till you see someone somewhere else. No restraint is needed because they're DIRT cheap mana wise.

Sending Siege archers to a tower, what we've been talking about THE WHOLE TIME requires no skill. This is getting frustrating.

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1. Obviously some health and damage values need to be changed to keep it all balanced, but this shouldn't be too hard.

2. Going all gunners is totally possible and probably a good build with queen and Oc(ranged and all) but note that their health is nerfed dramatically, so there easily picked off, while a combination of monks and minos would be much harder to kill.

3. Note that with this change on minos you can get 9+special(!) minions at the start by filling all you idols slots with minos with your starting gold. This would at the very least open up some strats.

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I would love if they had a lot less health (except minos) but the monks (etc) could heal a LOT of their health.

Man, I like that idea. I might look in to some sort of mod...

Edit: And increase the range of Priests so they can heal Minos on the fronts.

Edit 2: Come to think of it, if you made priests only effect grunts and minions but made their heal very strong for them, you could back up a giant wave really well! Assign a priest to each giant of a wave. That would be nice, would make it feel a LOT more general like when you use your minions to strengthen the normal grunt waves.

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