CrazyElectron

Join Date 05/2009

TEC Early Culture - Viable?

Okay, we all know the Advent weak economy is a myth - or at least overstated - and this is because of their culture. The boost to extraction rate is considerable and it gives a nice, even boost to income, unlike trade, which is all credits and nothing else. That, and culture also gives combat bonuses. So my question was, "Can I pull off a culture start as TEC?", rather than going for trade first.

So, I joined a 1v1 multiplayer game, and tested it out. Dual cap start (Akkan + Sova in that order) followed by a colonisation boom to sieze as many planets as possible, teching up along the way, getting ready to fight for the uncontested planet that I acurately predicted was going to be the clash point. End result? I loose. Case closed it would seem.

Although it's not as gloomy as it sounds. After reviewing the battle (my opponent, "TECs are sweet" was also TEC) from both sides I realised I made some elementary mistakes:

1. Failure to reseach the early metal/crystal mining techs, which would have boosted the extraction bonus from culture, took the edge off my strategy, especially when my opponent researched these techs.

2. Dodgy cap/fleet management. I lost both my caps (within a minute of each other) to lrm focus fire as I failed to keep the fleet together. I though I could somehow win when outnumbered and in a no-culture zone, unlike the planet I just jumped from.

3. Redundant and sloppy manufacturing processes (typical Brit I am) which prevented me from aquiring a fourth lab on my HW. I actually built a second frig factory miles from the fighting only to scuttle it after producing one lrm. That, and despite researching lrms before my opponent, I failed to produce any ships in sufficient numbers before contact to disperse my opponent's fire.

Had I NOT made these mistakes (and I redeemed myself a little in the end with HCs) I might have actually won - especially considering the bonuses of not making 1. Even though TEC need 3 civic labs to reseach culture, it certainly seemed like a worthwhile investment, considering you don't need a broadcast center on every planet (or in a line) unlike trade.

So that's why I'm posting this - for the discussion of the viability of a TEC early culture strategy. Giving the above, does anyone think it could have worked? Has anyone actually tried this and had it work? Do the experts, any comments on the viability of such a strategy? And so on. Discuss.

P.S. I've uploaded the replay of afformentioned game to the downloads section. It should be up in a few days.

P.P.S. Any ideas for a Vasari themed variant of this strategy. With their resource heavy econ, it might work even better.

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Totally depends on your situation. To be honest, I don't think there's room in the budget for early culture as any faction, including Advent. If you have the cash laying around, it's something you could consider, but if the cash can be spent in another way I wouldn't go for it early on. Most of the time I'd opt to speed up my colonization pace rather than pursue culture.

If you do want to pursue economic structures, the question of trade versus culture is a little tricky, and it really comes down to how your empire is laid out. Long and stringy empires are great for trade, since you can build a long trade route to boost income. Small and compact empires are better for culture, since it will spread more evenly from a single source and there probably isn't much potential for a long trade chain. Both can work.

I wouldn't consider the military benefits of culture. If you're actually fighting serious battles, you have no business being that deep in the civic technology tree in the early game.

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I think it could be viable, it just depends how early you're talking about. As Darvin said, except for colonizing planets any other form of investment in economy should be considered risky (save perhaps terran planet population researches and things in some situtations). Simply put you've got to have at least an edge in the military areana otherwise your oponent will likely destroy your culture center before it can pay off. If you get in the rare situation where you've both without a doubt outexpanded your oponent and have a stronger military, it could be worth the risk, but you'll need good intel to make that decision. So yet again it all comes down to your situation and how well you know it.

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Just to throw in my experience with culture - the other day I decided to try culture out in a practice (test) game. My idea wasn't economic, it was defensive. Enemy comes to bomb my cultured planets? Fine, let him. He can't take them, or so I thought.

Chose advent for early culture, dropped 2 civs, researched culture, plopped down a couple culture transmitters right off the bat. Took first roid, plopped down another culture transmitter. I wanted my empire to be marinated in my culture from the get-go.

So I go off colonizing. My culture spread quickly, and my culture line was going ALL THE WAY THROUGH my roid, and on to other planets. So my enemy comes as expected, and attacks my roid. I let him, and kept my fleet out taking more planets. He bombs the roid all the way down, and I get the message that I lost contact with the colony. "My strat is working," I told myself, "he's wasting his time." Low and behold, he was able to instantly colonize my roid, even though my culture line was all the way through it and well beyond it.

The following conversation ensued:

"You colonized my roid!"

"Yeah, so?"

"But I had culture there!"

"Yeah, so?"

"But my culture went all the way through it!"

"Yeah, so?"

"Well how is that possible?"

"Well I killed the culture transmitter."

"So what! I had more culture transmitters on my homeworld, and besides, don't you have to wait for my culture to recede a bit before you are able to colonize?"

"I had a capship there."

"So what! The capship drives away culture that fast?"

"Yup."

"Then why did I bother researching culture in the first place?"

"I don't know. It was an error in strategy. Culture sucks."

"Apparently!"

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Culture preventing colonization is very uncommon. Once a planet turns neutral, capital ships dispel hostile culture really easily.

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Good question. I only play TEC and I would say culture is critical, but not early. I expand really really fast using Sova Akan combo, and instead of researching trade , I invest in infrastructure. Once I find the chokes, I get repair bays and culture going on the planet or stroid before I fleet and trade up. This is a 1v1 scenario, for in team play culture doesnt hurt u as much because your empire is not spread as far.

Culture is also good when u breach a players empire, taking a planet in the middle of his collection of planets, and start spreading culture like its a plague. It really hurts his economy.

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For culture to deny colonization, it pretty much has to spread to almost all of the phase lanes leading out from the planet.

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TEC culture start is very possible, though I would have changed a few things about how you started. I would've gone Akkan, 2 civics labs, upgrade hw logistics, 1 more civic, sell metal buy crystal and start researching culture (You should be able to do this all before your Akkan leaves the gravwell towards the first roid. Then I would probably Colonize the roid, upgrade infrastrucutre and logistics and built my first culture center there.

That OR:

Do a tradeport start: Akkan, 2 civics, upgrade logistics, research trade, 2 tradeports on Hw (all before Akkan leaves the gravwell) then colonize the roid, upgrade infrastructure and logistics, build civic and tradeport, research culture, drop a culture center.

The second would probably be easier because culture beacons cost a bit more creds than trade ports, and building 2 tradeports on your HW right off the bat will give you around 2 extra creds per sec when you start building actual structures on your roid. Plus then you already have trade researched and established so you can continue going tradeports while your culture spreads.

Cant do this if a rush is eminent tho, so make sure you have a little breathing room. Also, colonization is faster if you get a second cap, BUT doing it this way will allow you to upgrade logistics on all the planets you get and fill them with tradeports (usually before you get the next planet colonized). Throw in a handful of cheap scouts to help kill siege frigs and lrms and you shouldnt have too much trouble with speedy colonization.

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Some interesting responses, thanks guys.

So tell me; is it a good idea to research the early resource gathering upgrades at all? As in, the first two metal mining upgrades and the first crystal upgrade? I've heard they aren't worth bothering with because they take too long to pay off, but they seemed to give my oponent the edge. That and it seems a good idea at least, no matter if you go trade or culture, as you'll still end up with at least two civic labs and you might as well put them to use (excluding ice/volc research).

Deciver that sounds like a decent start as long as a rush isn't imminent - which is wasn't in this game - and one is willing to research all the logistics upgrades. Towards the end of the game I was starting to drop trade ports, but either my planets were full, or the money to upgrade them just wasn't available to me (Kodiaks ain't cheap), so everything sort of stalled.

And Kharma, culture never seems to prevent colonisation unless the planet in question is actually surrounded by generators (a generator on the other end of at least two connecting phase lanes) or else the planet dies and the capships drive off the one ended culture. I guess its more supposed to protect large, established empires than establishing ones. Like a sort of pre-entrenchment starbase, with slightly greater effects on the opponent.

I guess, aside from map layout as Darvin mentioned, one has no excuse not to go after trade and culture in parallel, as going early culture automatically provides the labs required for trade ports.

Wow. Why are my posts always so long...?

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Early resource gathering upgrades is a good idea if you've got the spare cash for it and the time. Also, if you're going to use the trade start, you absolutely have to be scouting, because since you'll be filling up all your logistics with tradeports and culture, you'll need to spy your enemy approaching long before they get close, so the next planet you grab you can go full military. I'll usually switch to military when my opponent is 2-3 planets away taking a planet. Ill grab anything but an asteroid, upgrade its logistic, throw up some military labs and at least two factories and 1 trade port (to keep the chain going). Research repair and put two of those up, then research lrfs, flak and then pump out a bunch so that when I meet my enemy along the next few planets, ill have a comparable or superior military and can drive him off, and nab the planet(s) he wanted. It may also help to research siege frigs and build a few just so you can continue pressing in on your opponent while the siege frigs take care of planet bombing.

One more thing I've found thats useful about this strategy: since you have a bunch of scouts running around keeping tabs on where your opponent is, and a handful with your cap, you can use them to trip up and slow down your opponents colonization efforts by destroying constructors at undefended, relatively undeveloped planets, and if you're opponent isnt using a colonizer cap, you can chase down his colony frig and destroy it, forcing him to waste precious time building a new one from his HW and sending to the frontlines where its AM will be depleted and will have to wait for it to refill (plenty of time to swoop in a grab the planet(s) his cap just cleared). This is best for 1v1s, or 2v2s.

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So tell me; is it a good idea to research the early resource gathering upgrades at all?

That depends on how high your resource income is. The TEC and Vasari variants give you pretty good value for money spent, but Advent require a little higher income to justify them. The real reason these are good picks is that there are no catches. Once these upgrades are purchased, your income increases permanently across your entire empire.

If you have high income and some spare cash lying around that needs to be invested, these are great techs. If your resource income isn't that great, or you have other places where that money is needed, then you're better off avoiding them. That's true of almost all civic technology.

The real reason to build civic labs in the early game is ice/volcanic colonization techs. If you have the labs, may as well grab the low-lying fruit. If you don't need the labs, you probably shouldn't touch civics at all until you're ready to start building a trade network or need to fight culture with culture.

Towards the end of the game I was starting to drop trade ports, but either my planets were full, or the money to upgrade them just wasn't available to me (Kodiaks ain't cheap), so everything sort of stalled.

Classic case of having too many technologies and not enough money to actually implement it all. You can't expect an early-game economy to support simultaneously building a trade network and maintaining a fleet of heavies after having just sunk all that cash into the associated technologies.

I guess one has no excuse not to go after trade and culture in parallel, as going early culture automatically provides the labs required for trade ports.

Not really. Trade ports in particular require a lot of infrastructure investment to be effective. You need at least a 4 or 5 planet trade chain to start getting your money's worth. In many cases, that's just not feasible.

Also, TEC is the only faction that gets trade ports before culture. Advent and Vasari both get culture one lab before trade. In fact, as far as Vasari goes a good 50% of the time I'll end up skipping trade and going straight for phase stabilizers (most powerful civic technology in the game, IMO)

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