Kruelgor the Great

Join Date 02/2008

To Explore or not to Explore, that is the question

(NOTE: If you're an LRM spammer and you're looking to win the game within the first 20 minutes, and need to know the location of the enemy home planet then ignore the following)

After playing more of the game, I'm even more convinced that scouting in the INITIAL PHASES of the game is completely irrelevant. Instead, my goal is to capture all the immediate surrounding planets as quickly as possible.

The first ships I build are colonizers. The number of colonizers I build depends on how many surrounding planets are around my base planet. They need time to build up antimatter, so build these ships first. I also build the most powerful capital ship (not mother) and light frigates.

Within the first 5 to 6 minutes of the game, I have built the largest fleet possible allowed by the initial crew points. I then invade a planet (any planet). I lose very few frigates since I'm attacking with a relatively large initial fleet.

With this method, I can capture 3 surrounding planets in less than 15 minutes while keeping my casualties very low.

In the early phase of the game, there is no need to waste time or resources on scout ships if your goal is to simply capture the surrounding planets in a hurry.

This is with game speed set on FAST.

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You mention that seconds could mean victory or defeat, but with out scouting, you're going to risk wasting minutes jumping your first fleet into a dead system if there are multiple phase lanes out of your home system.

Personally, I like to know which is the best ORDER in which to colonize my first worlds. Just saying that you'll take all nearby worlds isn't the same as doing it in a reasonable order.

Early game, I tend to be short on crystal, not credits. 200-400 cred for 1 or 2 scouts. You're going to skimp on that?

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You mention that seconds could mean victory or defeat, but with out scouting, you're going to risk wasting minutes jumping your first fleet into a dead system if there are multiple phase lanes out of your home system.Personally, I like to know which is the best ORDER in which to colonize my first worlds. Just saying that you'll take all nearby worlds isn't the same as doing it in a reasonable order. Early game, I tend to be short on crystal, not credits. 200-400 cred for 1 or 2 scouts. You're going to skimp on that?

Not only is it going to waste resources, but it's also going to take some time to build and press buttons, and move your scout ships around. While you're doing all of that I'm already colonizing my first planet. I'll have all surrounding planets colonized by the time you have 1 "good" planet colonized. I don't know. You tell me what makes more sense.

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Example 1:

I see lets waste valuable time jumping your cap ship to clear out militia so you can colonize but oh wait! Its an ice/lava planet and you can't colonize it aww thats to bad a scout would have told you there was an asteroid on the other lane you could colonize oh well.

Example 2:

Oh goody 1 more jump before you finally wipe out blue but wait theres a fork in the road so... lets go right... Oh no its a pirate base! Half of your fleet is destroyed and you find out blues entire fleet(with a couple colony ships) escapes while your trapped fighting pirates.

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Sorry, but I have a hard time taking strategic advise from anyone named "______ The Great" seriously....

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Scout at least a few planets out, preferably the entire system. I learned this the hard way when my cap ships were in a dead system and my homeworld gets raped by an early pirate raid. You suck up resources to buld/maintain capital ships where a cheap scout frigate with no military value can afford to be outside your defensive perimiter.

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I'm a newbie here... but even I know that there's almost nothing as valuable in any conflict as INTELLIGENCE.

Gather your intel. Use it against your enemies.

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Why are you all trying so hard to convince him? The only thing more valuable than intelligence is an opponent who disdains it

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Scouts take almost no time if you can be a "hands off" leader. Build two, select both, right-click explore icon to have them automatically explore. They'll keep doing that, and revisiting the least-recently-visited sectors until something finally kills them around mid-game. The ongoing intel is absolutely invaluable, and you don't ever have to pay attention to them again.

Tea

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Kills them around mid-game?? Maybe the TEC scouts have hulls made of paper because mine die after about 15 minutes tops. I haven't played the other races much though so maybe they have better survivability. I always play with pirates too so that could be the difference.

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Intelligence gathering is crucial to a fast start. A scout will show you which nearby systems are lightly defended or do not require technology upgrades to colonize. It will also show you the most likely routes pirates and/or your enemies will use to attack.

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I guess he'll learn the hard way that early intelligence is a useful commodity.

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Yeah, to be fair I was exaggerating with mid-game being the point at which they "pop". It all depends on the map though, and what your opponents build up for defense. Sometimes, if I notice they're hurt, I will intervene and give them a back/forth in safe space for 8 jumps or so (holding down SHIFT) to allow them time to heal. Again though, that's a "set it and forget it" interaction as once they're done following that route they revert to auto-explore.

I wish SOASE had a way of setting a patrol so you could constantly check up on certain sectors.

Tea

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You all got some pretty good feedback.

However, I disagree. I'm way past you.

First, I totally skip scouting.

Second, I immediately build two colonizer ships. This gives them time to build up anti-matter for the colonizing process. (3 seconds into game)

Next, I build 2 research labs and begin researching colonization of the different planets right away. (10 seconds into game)

Next, I put 6 frigates into the production queue. (20 seconds into game)

When the 6 frigates are ready then are you ready to capture your first planet. Your colonization ship will have enough anti-matter for colonization. Go into any planet of your choosing and WAM! You got it.

Now, do the same thing with the second colonizing ship you already built. It will also have enough anti-matter by this point. Use the same 6 frigates you already built. You may have lost 2 of the frigates by this point, so build 2 more while you're attacking your first planet.

Also, by this point you have already discovered the technology to inhabit the different types of planets.

So basically, as quickly as you can build the 2 colonizing ships and 6 frigates then you can conquer two planets fast. Very FAST!

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Hmmm...you're at least making me think about this. Downsides:

1) No situational awareness of the rest of the universe
2) Wasted research on one or two techs if you didn't need volcano/ice
3) If you do colonize two planets immediately, they will actually drain your economy until you can upgrade them...which won't be easy as you spent a crapload on two colonizers, two research stations, and two techs.

If your enemy finds you at this point you are in a lot of trouble.

I may try this tonight, but I have a feeling it's a huge, huge slow-down on overall devlopement if you have an asteroid and terran planet on either side of you.

Tea

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Hmmm...you're at least making me think about this. Downsides:1) No situational awareness of the rest of the universe2) Wasted research on one or two techs if you didn't need volcano/ice3) If you do colonize two planets immediately, they will actually drain your economy until you can upgrade them...which won't be easy as you spent a crapload on two colonizers, two research stations, and two techs.If your enemy finds you at this point you are in a lot of trouble.I may try this tonight, but I have a feeling it's a huge, huge slow-down on overall devlopement if you have an asteroid and terran planet on either side of you.Tea

Nope, you got it all wrong.

This is only for the beginning phase of the game (first few minutes). Once there you can do whatever you like. I typically build up planets and do my scouting for enemy locations at this point.

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Well, as long as you're certain then I guess you're right

In all seriousness, I think there's a good chance that in a 1v1 your opponent might show up with a cap ship and 6 LRMs with more on the way and end the game in the "first few minutes". One way to find out: go online and try your strat out.

Edit: your colonizers will lose their antimatter after phasing and will be stuck waiting for a time anyway. It's not as instantaneous as you made it sound.

Tea

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Wasted research on one or two techs if you didn't need volcano/ice3)

Nope, because I'm going to colonize 7 or 8 planets in the first 20 minutes of the game. That technology will be needed. Odds are in your favor.

If you do colonize two planets immediately, they will actually drain your economy until you can upgrade them

Nope, because you simply cash in the metal that you are producing to raise the cash to upgrade the planets.

If your enemy finds you at this point you are in a lot of trouble.

Odds are the enemy will not find you soon enough to do much damage. Besides, after the six frigates I am researching Capital Ship crews and building a hoard of capital ships.

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I usually don't even notice that scouts costs me anything. Build 2 from start and have them autoscout. My cap ship usually have colonize as a skill (unless I've got a nightbor right next to me), and by the time it clears out a grav well, it has enough anti-matter to colonize.

Going flying out with the fleet from start without having any idea what's at the end of the stop sounds like pure idiocy to me. And if you don't know whats at the first 6-7 grav-wells around you within 3 minutes (two scouts can usually cover more that that) you will loose a lot of precious time in the colony race. Just sending your fleet off the first the best space lane, might send you to a completely useless system.

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your colonizers will lose their antimatter after phasing and will be stuck waiting for a time anyway. It's not as instantaneous as you made it sound.Tea

Naaa....The phase jump doesn't affect the time much. Especially when it is already 100% full before the phase jump. It doesn't take long at all for it to gain enough Anti-matter to colonize.

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I usually don't even notice that scouts costs me anything.

That little bit of cost is HUGE in the beginning phase of the game. In my opinion.

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I'm going to agree with both points. Against the AI ____ The Greats ( sorry too lazy to check spelling of your name) strategy will probably work very good. Against a thinking opponent it may or may not, depends on the person. Myself I don't see the harm in making one set him on Auto explore and then start the above strategy. Myself I usually make 2 send em out and check on what they send back. Also If your on a BIG map they greatly help out. Small maps they help but not so much.

And the point about the phase lanes makes sense. If you take over a planet that has say 3 lanes out of it, you may not be ready to protect it and your starting world , unless your starting world is in it's own little cul de sac. I currently am playing a custom map where the star is in the center and there are 3 wings each with 3 to 4 planets/asteroids etc. I'm in one wing, and the AI is in each of the other two. Basically I have my sector sealed off but i'm trying to find a good way to attack seeing how I have to jump to the star and then jump to the first enemy world. In this situation I'm glad I did the scout thing. Using the first strategy I would have been wiped out by now.

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Kruelgor, it might be easier to post a replay against a couple hard AIs (or one, if your strat is for a 1v1) instead of constantly nitpicking every counter point.

You have to realize that some people aren't going to believe you unless you give them proof.

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You just made me realize something. I've been playing against a Fortification AI.

Kruelgor, it might be easier to post a replay against a couple hard AIs (or one, if your strat is for a 1v1) instead of constantly nitpicking every counter point.You have to realize that some people aren't going to believe you unless you give them proof.

That sounds like a good idea.

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Nope, because I'm going to colonize 7 or 8 planets in the first 20 minutes of the game. That technology will be needed. Odds are in your favor.

If you colonize planets that fast, you will leave yourself with a huge underdevelopement penalty. And the bigger the penalty, the longer it will take for you to make the cash required to improve the planet.
I'd love to see a replay where you put your tactic to use against a human opponent.

Nope, because you simply cash in the metal that you are producing to raise the cash to upgrade the planets.

The more metal you sell, the lower the profit for you will go as well.
And it actually puts even more pressure on your economy having to build all the metal extractors. They are some 250 money a pop, and if I'm generous and say you've got a standard income of 10/s, you can only build a new every 25 seconds. And since there is average 2-3 of them to build for each colony, you will have to spend, 6.25 minutes on building just them if you've got some 6 colonies. That's time where you won't be able to spend money on anything else.

Odds are the enemy will not find you soon enough to do much damage. Besides, after the six frigates I am researching Capital Ship crews and building a hoard of capital ships.

Odds are the enemy will find you and have you under attack within the first 3 minutes of the game. That's what I've experienced in the past few multiplayer games.

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True, but I'm going to take all the surrounding planets anyway, so why not prepare to do so immediately. The only situation where this will not work is if a pirate base is next to me.

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