Stormcaller3801

Join Date 04/2006

Surprise! We're Militant!

Alright- this might be brilliant or this might be really foolish. I just got here.

Started my first game last night, just the Yor, the Terrans, and me (Thalans) on the biggest map possible, cakewalk. Yeah, I know- I stink. It was more to get the hang of things than looking for a challenge.

In any case, about halfway through the game I get my espionage reports up to advanced and I'm checking things out- both the Terrans and the Yor have some attack ships. I, meanwhile, am the nice guy. No attack ships at all- not one gun anywhere. This started to worry me because despite being leaps ahead of the pack on economics and research, I'd be hard-pressed to get a battle-worthy army going. Especially swarms of fighters. But I didn't want to pay for a huge military if I could avoid it.

Then, I had an epiphany. I went into the design system and I created a Tiny ship, called the Leaf. Thanks to my assiduous development of the hyperdrive and miniaturization lines, these little guys were outfitted with paired Warp IVs. No weapons, no armor. I think they cost me about 51 bc to build. I then just started cranking them out- I think I had about 40 of the things divided into fleets and scattered about when the Yor declared war on the Terrans (who by this point were my allies).

Immediately I went in and upgraded the design, adding paired plasma and three advanced deflectors (tech stolen from the Terrans and Yor). I think upgrading the whole fleet cost me about 14,000 bc on the longest installment plan, enough to put me in the hole for a month. But the effect was swift and merciless- my military ranking went from 0 to 322 and suddenly the Yor had several fleets of very angry Leaves at their front door.

...And then they found two Precursor Rangers.

In any case- anyone else tried a strategy like this? Developing 'harmless' ships to avoid appearing a threat, then when someone moves to attack your vulnerable empire, showing that hidden knives can be more deadly than visible swords? I think I probably should've developed my bank account more, but I'm just learning here. Probably could use some better economic starbases along my trade routes, too.

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well i don't like this easy-upgrade feature.
ships should be upgradeable on your planets and military starbases, nowhere else.

ive read about players upgrading their "harmless" colony ships to deadly transports while they were parking next to enemy planets - a design flaw in my opinion.

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That is alright, but if you have a low military rating, you will also have poor relations with every other race. They take your military might in account when they deal with you diplomatically, so you will always be at a disadvantage without a large standing military.

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I agree, it's a horrible system as is. I'm just glad the AI doesn't pick up on this ability. Imagine, all those Scout ships suddenly turning into Late-Game Warmachines or all those Constructors turning into Transports the second war is delcared.

To the OP, you can also upgrade ships while your completely in debt too...it's doesn't matter. i just hope they take care of this later. No doubt fixing will cause a lot of people to change their playing strats but c'mon, if you have a booming economy and your playing on Normal. Just upgrade every ship you have regardless of cost....one turn later, your at 2000 Debt, 3 turns later with a decent economy your out of debt. And you have a shiny new fleet.

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At higher difficulties, you will be a ripe target for the AI if you don't have any military at all. They will declare war on you just as soon as they can assemble a few fleets and you'll be forced to veer off your plan to defend yourself. Best to include a competitive military in your plans to begin with.

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Yeah, Ive pulled that trick once or twice on the AIs when switching from one weapon choice to another. It works, but it aint cheap, and if you arent careful, you can sink your economy.

As for the "easy upgrade" feature, I think it works fine. If my ships are close to one of my planets or deep inside of my territory, then the upgrades are quick. IHowever, if you try that around an unincumbered AI (especially with Brad's new tweaks) and your gonna be toast because of the long upgrade time.

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Upgrading ships are sitting ducks, too. And if you try doing it while in enemy territory, it can take multiple weeks.

Regarding debt from upgrading, at first I thought it was a bug. I'd upgrade some ships and go into debt - like -3k. Next turn I'd be back up to 9k, with F4 saying I was making +3k a turn. I thought, hrm, that is odd. So I tried upgrading all my ships at once - putting me into 80k in the hole.

That's when I realized it pays off debt by killing production/research - my research and production went to 0. I was gonna be in debt for a looooong time.

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I like the upgrade feature and think it's both necessary and "realistic" (when new technologies come out, makes sense that you can tweak your ship, rather than having to build a whole new one), but agree it might be better to make upgrading possible only on bases and planets. But for those who like playing tricks like the ones described above, what I can say, you're dealing with AI, there will always be ways to exploit the system. If you don't like cheating the program then just play in the spirit it was intended

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It's an irritating strategy, but can't be stopped. You could upgrade in space, so it'll stay. It's the same hull, so it's possible.

However, the flaw is

.one turn later, your at 2000 Debt, 3 turns later with a decent economy your out of debt. And you have a shiny new fleet.

This doesn't work at higher levels. Say hello to 14k of shiny debt

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That's when I realized it pays off debt by killing production/research - my research and production went to 0. I was gonna be in debt for a looooong time.

Oh yeah- no question. I was able to mitigate it by going for the long term option, which means I'll be paying for it over several years. And all these ships were in my territory- I still had to get them to the enemy to fight. But I thought it was a rather fun trick to suddenly have a fighting force that (should've) beat everything else on the map.

I always figured a heavy military presence would cause more trouble with diplomacy- people are going to stay guarded when dealing with you, just because you're the brute on the block. But maybe it's more a case of people deciding they want you to like them so you'll hit somebody else...

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I second that upgrades should only be allowed on planets or starbases. Or possibly, within the influence of a starbase. The fact that you can upgrade many sectors away from your closes planet or starbase is a little too farfetched, and very exploitable.

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I've been playing at either Challenging or Tough. I find that a combination of two things keeps the AI hordes away until at least the middle game, when my military/industrial complex can handle a serious war.

1: Speak Softly: Research the first few Diplomacy techs ASAP and tech trade at least intermittently with everyone. A high Diplomacy rating improves your relations with other factions. Watch the level of your relations with them. If they slide toward Cool, or worse, Wary, try giving them a tech or some cash. Once they hit Wary/Hostile, you're probably headed for conflict.

2: Carry a Big Stick: The very first turn after you have researched/traded for Space Weapons, make a new ship by taking a tiny hull and sticking a Particle Beam on it. Make this ship the very first build priority at every single starport you have, and make it the fitst ship you build on every new colony. It's cheap, so it builds fast. Having just one of these ships for each colony a) increases your military rating dramatically; and

leaves no planet open to simple transport invasion. (Though having a military rating that is much higher than the Drengins' will make them HATE you...

)

I usually name this ship 'Big Stick' and use a different hull from my main Fighter hull so it's easy to tell it apart from the serious military ships that will come later. Even in the later game, if I capture or flip a planet, I build one of these things first.

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if you have a booming economy and your playing on Normal. Just upgrade every ship you have regardless of cost....one turn later, your at 2000 Debt, 3 turns later with a decent economy your out of debt. And you have a shiny new fleet.

This has already been taken care of in the betas. The release will likely be out next week.

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This has already been taken care of in the betas. The release will likely be out next week.

? What's been taken care of? Are upgrades being changed to where they're outrageously expensive again? I was just getting used to upgrading existing units, as opposed to replacing them outright.......

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I expect it's more a case of the computer will nix any upgrade that drops you below a certain threshold. Maybe not the -500 mark, but something significant.

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I have no problems with upgrading ships away form planets. As has been said, they take several weeks to upgrade - and while upgrading they only have 1 hitpoint. It's a financial and strategic risk/reward decision you have to make. Don't take away strategy choices - that is what this game is all about.

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But maybe it's more a case of people deciding they want you to like them so you'll hit somebody else...

Slightly off topic, but remember the quote about the meek inheriting the earth? Turns out that the original meaning of the word meek derives from isn't "wimp" - it's "strength with restraint" ......

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